what atone or atonement mean to catholics?
What is the meaning that Jesus atone for all our sins?
Also please explain is that atone only for past , present, and not future sins which would mean Jesus atoned only for some sins?
Also was all sins atone once on the cross for all times and all people so we can be in perfect harmony with God at all time?
Bwellmysoul why you don't answer me??
I have asked you so many times one simple direct question with just an yes or no answer and you ignorantly don't give a honest loving answer?
There is nothing to be afraid of because your church me or Jesus will not condemned you if you lie only satan will do that and is working through you not to give a honest true answer to me.
You have shown me and others your disrespect and unfruitful service and catholic performance in not even answering me but what me to read and answer your post is a crying shame!
I am not asking you to accept everything Wommack is saying I ask you to please i the name of Jesus tao listen because it willstop a lot of confusion, religion loops and stupid question you ask or think, and correct your philosophy!
It is a two fold information and the bible say in proverbs with all your getting get understanding, that is your part.
I honor FAITH a lot because she took the time to listen and it at least give her a better understand of what I really believe , and know even though she doesn't accept all Wommack teaching but she has learned many truth from him in many thing which she did not have to ask me the same questions which was answered properly and biblically on those teaching BS.
I find her as showing her good fruits a a catholic a honorable loving charible witness to her belief or unbelief as being a catholic.
This showed her good heart, and I give her the same respect as most in anything she tell me to hear or study.
I also reject most of her teachings and hers ourse but I am at least respectful to listen to get understanding in all my getting that is doing what the bible says in 1 corithians 13, and proverbs getting wisdom in a flip flop manner.
So again why you don't say the truth if you heard the teaching or not or even say I will not take on second to hear what he has taught about those like I see you as enemies of the cross and those who are offensive to the cross??
At least you will know exactly how and what I think about the RCC and other religious people even many have these same views in my pentecostal church and protestant churches so you are not alone.
I am not attacking you but the demonic spirit of religion which is deceiving many to not be who God want them to be and satan deceptions catholic members of religion.
I will hope hear you will answer me, because this whole thread is directed to you.
The spiritual realm of God the real world!
Ephesians 1 :3 we are already blessed in the spiritual realm with everything we need, specially our salvation , our righteousness, our perfect in Christ.
We must know everything we have and need is in the spiritual realm, even being saved, born again is all done in the spiritual realm.
Being justified, holy, perfect like Jesus is right now is because of the spiritual realm.
That our born again spirit brand new was given to us in the spiritual realm.
That we are healed, rich , full of joy , have peace and all the fruit of the spirit is given to us in the spiritual realm.
That demons flee from us by our authority we have in the spiritual realm , but most christian and religions, and churches today work mostly in the carnal five sense realm of their flesh and work in that realm by performances and good works which is different in God world.
the true gospel work in the spiritual realm and that is why religion and other religion like JW Mormons Catholics muslims can not deal with this realm it is not logical to them or make sense to them.
So many people are against speaking in tongues because they are carnal and don't know that tongues is in the spiritual realm.
I will talk more about this and I found this is one of the main issue the RCC claim we don't know about them as catholic and that is true because the RCC is not in the spiritual realm.
I think this topic ail be very interesting to the max and God get all the glory!
To be able to know God you have to be in the spiritual world because God is Spirit John 4:24
To know the ways of God and to gain spiritual knowledge you have to be in the spiritual realm, and in the word of God because the bible say God word is spirit and life and truth!
That is why so many come against the bible and don't understand it because they approach the bible from a carnal understand and end it misinterpretating the bible to the core, and twisting it to say what satan want it to say so he can deceive
1 Corinthians 2
God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[b]—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ.
Is being gay a demonic mindset or physical?
I have read the post from alcovery and he mention some truth at large even some rebuking on this subject to FAITH about gays and lesbians and I am alway interesting in tzhese views because my own flesh and blood sister is a lesbian gay ordained paster in her church full of gays and people with this same spirit in her church.
I know being gay is not God will at all and is a demonic spirit which violate the bible even from Adam and Eve and not God will to have a Adam and steve or Eve and sister Lucy!
many say this is a physical thing but I beieve it is first a spiritual disorder, and a wrong mindset accepted and learned from a person or gay trapped in this deception, even to a stonghold point of thinking it is alright to have same sexual activity and relationship in a same sex marriage.
If a person wanted to be free from such a thing God grace is there to help step by step, but in my sister case is that she support women lesbians as having the liberty to marry, and have lustful relationship legally along with men doing the same and she support organization for gay liberty, that is demonic to the core , which I even have to question is she was even saved or as such renounced Jesus as her lord which is a sin unto death.
I hope we can have a good discussion about this here on this thread.
thank you alcovery for giving me this idea to start a thread on this topic!
what is the biblical meaning of Faith?
I think this is another thread that need to be added to make the bible and the gospel , and truth stand out to be truth in understanding of biblical revelation of God will.
Mike gave me the idea to maybe start this because there is a lot confusion about faith and what it is , and what it means and what it does.
I am writing a little short booklet on this so it will help my book a lot in giving me more informations from a flip flop view on faith.
I seen even in the pentecostal church also there is a confusion of what is faith even to the point teaching and preaching our faith must grow and I find this very wrong biblically and a false understanding of our born again righteous faith we received with no works which as such is imputed to us, and not only but to everyone , but it is a matter if we use it or not it is a choice.
I see the second issue from the catholic mindset that they put works before faith and that is totally wrong, so maybe we can deal with these issue at large here on this.
I think this should be a very interesting topic!
To begin let deal with this scripturally with this awesome so clear verse in 2 Peter1, then we go to galations ,Mark, Hebrews about faith, in what it is and specially James to deal with this!
2 Peter 1
New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting the Faithful
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Let take this step by step verse by verses in correct biblical concepts and principle ok?
Let first make a word study so we don't get into another word game, and see what this words mean to put truth together in a clear revelation of what the bible is saying what we have , and what the scripture is teaching us!
One important word to look at is (Obtained) the second main key word is what is to be obtained and the amount or is it the same of something else or exactly like somebody else?
So the second simple word is (LIKE), let deal with these word then continue after putting them in proper understanding OK?
what is the word imputed mean to catholic?
im·pute [im-pyoot] Show IPA
verb (used with object), im·put·ed, im·put·ing.
to attribute or ascribe: The children imputed magical powers to the old woman.
to attribute or ascribe (something discreditable), as to a person.
Law. to ascribe to or charge (a person) with an act or quality because of the conduct of another over whom one has control or for whose acts or conduct one is responsible.
Theology . to attribute (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to a person or persons vicariously; ascribe as derived from another.
Obsolete . to charge (a person) with fault.
STRONGS NT 3049: ??????µa?
??????µa?; imperfect ???????µ??; 1 aorist ?????s?µ??; a deponent verb with 1 aorist passive ?????s??? and 1 future passive ????s??s?µa?; in Biblical Greek also the present is used passively (in secular authors the present participle is once used so, in Herodotus 3, 95; (cf. Veitch, under the word; Winers Grammar, 259 (243); Buttmann, 52 (46))); (?????); the Sept. for ??????; (a favorite word with the apostle Paul, being used (exclusive of quotations) some 27 times in his Epistles, and only four times in the rest of the N. T.);
1. (rationes conferre) to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over; hence,
a. to take into account, to make account of: t? t???, Romans 4:3,(4); metaphorically, to pass to one's account, to impute (A. V. reckon): t?, 1 Corinthians 13:5; t??? t?, 2 Timothy 4:16 (A. V. lay to one's charge); t??? d?a???s????, ?µa?t?a?, Romans 4:6,(8 (yet here L marginal reading T Tr WH text read ??)); t? pa?apt?µata, 2 Corinthians 5:19; in imitation of the Hebrew ?? ????????, ?????eta? t? (or t??) e?? t? (equivalent to e?? t? or ?ste e??a? t?), "a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i. e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight" (cf. Fritzsche on Romans, vol. i., p. 137; (cf. Winers Grammar, § 29, 3 Note a.; 228 (214); Buttmann, § 131, 7 Rem.)): Romans 2:26; Romans 9:8; e?? ??d??, Acts 19:27; Isaiah 40:17; Daniel ((Theod. ??)) ; Wis. 3:17 Wis. 9:6; ? p?st?? e?? d??a??s????, Romans 4:3, 5, 9-11, 22f, 24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23; Genesis 15:6; Psalm 105:31 (); 1 Macc. 2:52.
b. equivalent to to number among, reckon with: t??a µet? t????, Mark 15:28 (yet G T WH omit; Tr brackets the verse) and Luke 22:37, after Isaiah 53:12, where the Sept. ?? t??? ???µ???.
c. to reckon or account, and treat accordingly: t??a ?? t?, Romans 8:36 from Psalm 43:23 (); cf. Buttmann, 151 (132); (Winer's Grammar, 602 (560)); (Romans 6:11 followed by accusative with an infinitive, but G L omit; Tr brackets the infinitive; cf. Winer's Grammar, 321 (302)).
2. (in animo rationes conferre) to reckon inwardly, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate (A. V. reason): p??? ?a?t???, one addressing himself to another, Mark 11:31 R G (p??? ?µa?t??, with myself, in my mind, Plato, Apology, p. 21 d.).
3. by reckoning up all the reasons to gather or infer; i. e., a. to consider, take account, weigh, meditate on: t?, a thing, with a view to obtaining it, Philippians 4:8; followed by ?t?, Hebrews 11:19; (John 11:50 (Rec. d?a?????es?e)); t??t? followed by ?t?, 2 Corinthians 10:11.
b. to suppose, deem, judge: absolutely, 1 Corinthians 13:11; ?? ??????µa?, 1 Peter 5:12; t?, anything relative to the promotion of the gospel, 2 Corinthians 3:5; t? e?? t??a (as respects one) ?p?? (t??) ? etc. to think better of one than agrees with what etc. (`account of one above that which' etc.), 2 Corinthians 12:6; followed by ?t?, Romans 8:18; t??t? followed by ?t?, Romans 2:3; 2 Corinthians 10:7; followed by an infinitive belonging to the subject, 2 Corinthians 11:5; followed by an accusative with an infinitive, Romans 3:28; Romans 14:14; Philippians 3:13 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 321 (302)); t??a ?? t??a, to hold (A. V. 'count') one as, 2 Corinthians 10:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 602 (560)); with a preparatory ??t?? preceding, 1 Corinthians 4:1.
c. to determine, purpose, decide (cf. American 'calculate'), followed by an infinitive (Euripides, Or. 555): 2 Corinthians 10:2. (Compare: ??a??????µa?, d?a??????µa?, pa?a??????µa?, s????????µa?.)
I am starting this new thread because it seems the RCC doesn't know how powerful this word is given unto us and how righteousness, justification, eternal redemption is just imputed to us in knowing we can't be sinners but we are the righteousness of God imputed to us through Jesus and by Jesus unto us unconditional, only by right believing in recieving this impartation of Christ perfection . This goes perfectly with 2 Cor 5:17 and also with Romans 5 and this is a powerful truth to know this is a foundation in the only one true gospel of Christ which religion and religious people reject and say this tickles so many ears to be too good to be true news. This is why Paul and even adrew wommack and myself and other are being attacked as preaching a different gospel but it is a foundation of thee gospel and a bible truth!
Why does the RCC hate this word, and put their belief system on their own working out of righteousness and carrying their own cross when Christ dii all for us so we can be free and be in peace, fullness of joy, and assurance??
My observation so far is that the RCC has imputed the catholic people sins to them, but don't accept What Christ has imputed righteousness to us born again saved christians who are righteous and pure before God.
evangelist new debate forum and information
Here you can hear my broadcast on web radio and also see my tv broadcast here from Kassel Germany teaching on the true gospel of Christ!
Jesus became a sinner so we can't be a sinner!
The biblical question people must understand is how Jesus could become a sinner who knew or did any sins?
The second question must be understood how can we become righhteous like Jesus who does not everything perfectly like Him, and be called holy royal priests on top of that ?
To call ourselves a sinner is making what Jesus did for us on the cross as unworthyness and in vain!
To see all this biblically is to read and get the true revelation what the bible say all about this very clearly.
2 Corinthians 5:21
New International Version (NIV)
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Also to put scriptures with scriptures and precepts upon precepts and biblical principle and God perfect will is to understand what this is meaning below:
New International Version (NIV)
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
In the old testament even King David wished among all things that he could be in our place as non sinners and righteous men of God and he said this wish in here below:
1 Blessed is the one
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
2[b] Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord does not count against them
and in whose spirit is no deceit.
3 When I kept silent,
my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night
your hand was heavy on me;
my strength was sapped
as in the heat of summer.[b]
5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you
and did not cover up my iniquity.
I said, “I will confess
my transgressions to the Lord.”
And you forgave
the guilt of my sin.
David knew we would have a better covenant in righteousness and no condemnations like he had, which is to good to be true for David and awesome , imputed to us by Jesus !
This is why to say youz are a sinner again when you have sinned is an insult to Jesus , the cross and to God, and a happiness to satan and his demons because his job is being supported by a decieved person or church like the RCC to be a accuser of the brethren, which is better said as beating yourself up and beating others up as an sinner accusers!
Satan main job is to not let real christian and sons of God know who they really are before God and see themselves a sinners making the cross worthless , because the cross won over all of satan wishes , to destroy God perfect plan for all man kind.
In the above verse of Romans is what make every sinner after Jesus death really saved according to John 3:16 saved only by their faith if they use it, but moist don't use any faith so they are lost sinners!
When you use your faith there is no doubt of you not being saved, unless you believe God is lying, or you have to much unbelief like Mike has to not know if you are saved or not!
Only an unsaved person would asked silly questions like Mike asked about us being saved, and our salvation in Christ!
RCC is another Enemies of the cross!
As I have heart this teaching and preaching from this link below I had to think strongly about those who are also enemies of the cross which is my observation of the whole RCC vatican and 95% of their poor catholic members. As I hear how they compare themselves with the carnal side of themselves and the outward performances they try to do a good as possible for God,they put Jesus on the side lines to show more of their religious works, obediences of the laws and commandments like the Jews and their rituals and tradition before Jesus !
The main part which make them enemies of the cross is their outward confession of calling themselves (SINNER) and not the righteousness of God or seeing how God see a person who got born again and saved and is redeemed now and has redemption now by the atonement what Jesus imputed unto us and by Him!
A truth is either you are with Jesus all the way or you are against Him!
The RCC has rejected the gospel and made a work and merit gospel which is not good news and the RCC has put a religious bondage of works and merits of the catholic alone members which is a crying shame!
So much is explain in this below link I have posted along with other teaching in that link.
please take note of the scripture Wommack a great bible teacher , and a person who lived a good life by man standards in not doing the sins most people have done through out his life but still seen himself not worthy by his obedience or religious outward carnal merits before God until he accepted what the cross and the blood of Jesus finished and done for him.I like the way he points out that all his religious works and religous obedience was like filthy rags before God, until he accepted Jesus as his redeemer and Lord, and accepted all from what Jesus done for him in Christ perfection ad Christ righteousness for us according to Romans 5 in which the RCC does not want to see this truth in the bible and mis quote and interpretate false the gospel scriptures of our justification and righteousness, and holiness, and pureness , sanctification before God as being born again saved, redeemed saints, and sons and daughters in Christ and Christ in us!
The RCC has put themselves on a religious see saw, up and down non relationship the God according to their performances specially when they fall as giving themselves a title as sinner, FALLer, Short comers, failures,unworthy , or stains of sins only to gt washed in a invented wizard of OZ purgatory.
This all is non sense and is an enemie of the greatest suffering in history toward us and for us that the RCC is taken in vain!
So please pay close attention to what Wommack is quoting from scriptures more than his teaching on those enemies of the precious cross!http://www.awmi.net/extra/audio/1073
thank you those that have taken the time to hear these lessons from beginning to end, even if you disagree it has shown your true love for yourself, me and others and most of all to God in all your getting getting understand Prov 4!
Offense of the cross!
I know this is one of the most important message every Christian and Catholic and religious person and group like the JW ,mormons and specially Muslims and the whole RCC and Jews alike need to listen very closely too to know how their belief is an great offense of the cross and make Jesus death burial and resurrection as a vain unfinished worthless sacrifice for all man kind!
Please study mainly the verses mention on the audio and research them with an open heart!
thank you and hope you don't be or continue to be an offense of the cross of Jesus !http://www.awmi.net/extra/audio/1073