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baby3 Posted - 03/28/2012 : 17:54:58
I was wondering if you prayed to the so called saints and one would answer you.how would you really know who was answering you? How would you know if it was from Gd or from the devil? If you are right about the saints being able to hear when we pray then so could all the evil spirits to right?
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baby3 Posted - 04/14/2012 : 10:19:27
I am all for the different life,you can believe me in this:)We will all be the same and no one will be better then the other:) Also woman and children may even rule in some cases as they were so abused on this earth and took the back seat most all the time,and still are in third world countries.The only world I long for is the new one coming soon to a neighborhood near you:) Thank You! Jesus!
God4me Posted - 04/12/2012 : 01:16:46
quote:
Originally posted by baby3

G4 I love you!!!
Will There be Marriage in Heaven?
by Rich Deem
Introduction Many people want to spend eternity with their spouse in heaven, especially if separated from them through death during their marriage. Although Christian doctrine states that we (Christians) will be together for all eternity, what does it say about our former marriages? Will we be married to each other for eternity in heaven?

The real marriageA marriage is described in heaven. The "bride" is composed of all believers in Jesus Christ. The "groom" is none other than Jesus Himself. This kind of idea seems okay for women, but tends to make us men a little nervous. I find it difficult to consider myself as a bride. However, the "marriage" to the lamb (Jesus Christ) is obviously a symbol of the unity of believers with Jesus Christ in heaven (Revelation 19:1). We know that it is symbolic, because scripture itself defines it as such:

"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb [Jesus] has come and His bride has made herself ready." It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Revelation 19:8)

The "fine linen" of the bride (body of believers) are the righteous acts of the saints. Obviously, this would make a rather poor covering. The analogy of a wedding is given because it represents the most intimate relationship that we can experience on earth. However, like all earthly examples, it pales in comparison to the kinds of relationships possible in heaven.

What will people be like in heaven?The Bible says the physical laws will be vastly different in heaven. From this description, it is apparent that our current bodies would not be acceptable in such a place.1 The Bible poses the question, "But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" (1 Corinthians 15:35). The answer to the question is given in a series of comparisons:2

Bodies in Heaven Mortal Body Resurrection Body
perishable-- imperishable
dishonor-- glory
weak-- powerful
natural--- spiritual

To a certain degree, we will be given some of the characteristics of God in heaven.3 Without at least the dimensional characteristics of God, we would not be able to see Him, which the Bible says we will do.3

Contrary to the Mormon view of heaven,4 it doesn't seem that people in heaven will be either male or female. Jesus was asked a complicated question about heaven by the Sadducees (a religious sect that did not believe in the resurrection of the dead) that directly leads us to this conclusion.5 The Sadducees gave a scenario of a woman who married 7 men (sequentially, since they all died prematurely) in her lifetime. They asked whose wife she would be in heaven. Jesus answered:

"You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (Matthew 22:29-30)

In other words, there will be no marriage or sexual differences among those in heaven, since reproduction is unnecessary. This concept is supported by other biblical verses that indicate that males and females are spiritually equal.6 The same concept applies to the races.7 I doubt that there will be racial differences in heaven.

The idea that we will no longer be married is disturbing to some people. Personally, I like to be married. From an earthly perspective, the dissolution of marriage in heaven doesn't sound like a good thing. However, in heaven, we will be "married" to Jesus, who will be our spiritual "husband."8 If you are not currently a follower of Jesus Christ, you cannot understand what this will be like, and it will probably not have any appeal for you. However, if you have experienced the "highs" of following Jesus as He leads you, you will have a glimpse of how awesome this experience will be. God would not take away something good if He did not replace it with something better. Not only will we be changed, but Paul says that we cannot even imagine the kinds of things God has prepared for us:

but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." (1 Corinthians 2:9)

Besides receiving a new body, those who enter heaven will be given a new name9 and will be incapable of committing sin.10 Therefore, all the problems we have by being mean to each other will be gone. We will be able to enjoy each other's company without the fear of being hurt by anyone.

No need for marriage and childrenJesus made it clear that angels do not marry and have children.5 He also indicated that we will be like the angels in that regard.5 God has allowed the human race to increase dramatically in numbers, so that there will be billions of God's people in heaven. There can be no further reproduction in heaven, because it would violate God's principle of free will and voluntary choice. All humans are required to choose to accept God or reject Him. If children were born in heaven, they would have no ability to choose to accept or reject God. This is because there is no allowance for rebellion and sin in heaven. For example, we know that angles do not receive grace,11 but are condemned on their first act of disobedience to God.12 Therefore, any children born would be forced to accept God - something God never does. This does not necessarily mean that God is necessarily finished producing spiritual creatures. It is possible that God could create another universe to allow other spiritual creatures the ability to choose God and enter into heaven. However, this is mere speculation.

Conclusion Although marriage is good and represents the most intimate relationship we can experience on earth, it should not be idolized. If you love your spouse more than God then he/she has become an idol. The most important commandment is to love God "with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind."13 We will be with our loved ones in heaven (for those who believe). However, we will not be married to our spouses, since that relationship will be superseded by our relationship with Jesus, since we will be "married" to Jesus. This is not the description of a sexual relationship, but a description of an intimacy that is only approximated by what exists between a husband and a wife. Marriage on earth is merely a glimpse of the relationship God intends to have with us in heaven. It is the purpose for which we were created. Religion that substitutes marriage and family as an idol in place of God is a false religion.


B3 Blessings and Peace!




In heaven their is neither marriage or given in marriage, Mk 12: 25.
It will be very different life in heaven.
Faith_at_Large Posted - 04/11/2012 : 19:53:41
Jesus also said to led the dead bury their dead. The dead are not always those who are literally dead. And the dead prior to the Resurrection would also not know anything, but according to Paul who wrote AFTER the resurrection, the dead in Christ will know so very much more. The dead will know.


1 Corinthians 13:12 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
jdubya Posted - 04/11/2012 : 09:50:49
quote:
Originally posted by God4me

quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul

quote:
Originally posted by baby3

quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul

quote:
Nowhwere in the new testament Church, In the Bible, Does it say we can pray to the departed saints, If you did and one answeared you, You know it would be a demon pretnding to be a saint.



http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Revelation 5:8

quote:
This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.

They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God.

Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us.

We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.

Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God.

Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.






OK That is a good answer but which saint went to heaven and did not? Why or how could we be sure they are their they may have had a sin that was very bad and we did not know of it.This is why only praying to God is safe,cause God does hear all the prayers of the saints.Jesus said pray to the Father and ask anything in MY name and it shall be given to you,In the Lords name not in anyone else's right?



The souls of the saints (who are with God) are in heaven due to God's mercy when they reconciled their sins against man and God.

Saints on Earth pray for intercession through (and with) the saints in Heaven. Souls speak to souls.

Souls of the faithful are holy "be holy as My Father in heaven in Holy."

The heavenly host of angels are holy, Mary the Mother of God is holy. Holy souls join together to form the Communion of Saints.

P.S. Sainthood in the Catholic Church is a grassroot yet formal process. The process takes multiple number of years and generally requires proof through a miraculous action of God through the proposed saint.





1)As soon as a person because a born again Christian, They are a Saint, What is all this rubish about taking years to become a saint??.
Yor problem is,
You believe the ppe's porkies and the catholiv con-men ratheer than the Bible.


Actually, while on earth we are saints in part according to:

Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

I would ask you to look at the Greek in this verse. It clearly says that we share in part (merida) in the inheritance of the saints in light.

The root verb of merida is meris and the definition in Strong's shows this:
1) a part as distinct from the whole
2) an assigned part, a portion, share

The saints in light are saints in full. Those who are in Christ on earth have a portion and are exhorted towards growing in holiness.
Hebrews says to STRIVE for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. This is just one of many that shows holiness isn't just a fixed entity, but active as are faith, hope and charity.

Clearly as a Greek expert, you know that Holy, Saint, Sanctify come from the same word.

The saints in light no longer need faith or hope. Only pure love/charity remain (1Cor. 13).



Hbr 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.


Here is the intersection of heaven and earth. Speaking to the Hebrews - they have come to the Heavenly Jerusalem with a gathering of angels and the spirits of just men made perfect.
Unfortunately, you put a great divide between saints on earth and in heaven, when the bible never does.
There is only one body of Christ and death does not separate us from Christ. It seems rather elementary, but then again, one cannot use manipulation when the subject is too simple.

So clearly you are wrong again, and it is the bible alone that proves you wrong. Maybe you should stop believing in Pentacostal porkies and con-men.
mikejuli Posted - 04/11/2012 : 03:15:50
quote:




1)Paul never prayed for the dead, Neither was he making a doctrine out of baptising for the dead.
There was a group of people who believed in baptism for the dead, So Paul was telling them, If you don't believe in the resurrection, Why do you baptis for the dead.


paul never condemned the practice either. and since he brought up the subject it seems like that would have been a good time to do it if it was, as you claim, wrong. what he did say was wrong was the belief that there was no life after death.


quote:


So the Angel the spoke to Cornelios, was a "Hagios Angelios", Not a,
"Hagios Hagios".
STOP TWISTING THE TRUTH.

Holy Saints aren't Angels..WAKE UP.


i don't believe i ever made an argument that angels were hagios hagios... (how would that actually be said in greek by the way? you are a greek scholar right?) my claim was that even the bible refers to angels as holy ie saints. so stop trying to misconstrue my words to fix your problems...
baby3 Posted - 04/10/2012 : 19:49:15
G4 I love you!!!
Will There be Marriage in Heaven?
by Rich Deem
Introduction Many people want to spend eternity with their spouse in heaven, especially if separated from them through death during their marriage. Although Christian doctrine states that we (Christians) will be together for all eternity, what does it say about our former marriages? Will we be married to each other for eternity in heaven?

The real marriageA marriage is described in heaven. The "bride" is composed of all believers in Jesus Christ. The "groom" is none other than Jesus Himself. This kind of idea seems okay for women, but tends to make us men a little nervous. I find it difficult to consider myself as a bride. However, the "marriage" to the lamb (Jesus Christ) is obviously a symbol of the unity of believers with Jesus Christ in heaven (Revelation 19:1). We know that it is symbolic, because scripture itself defines it as such:

"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb [Jesus] has come and His bride has made herself ready." It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Revelation 19:8)

The "fine linen" of the bride (body of believers) are the righteous acts of the saints. Obviously, this would make a rather poor covering. The analogy of a wedding is given because it represents the most intimate relationship that we can experience on earth. However, like all earthly examples, it pales in comparison to the kinds of relationships possible in heaven.

What will people be like in heaven?The Bible says the physical laws will be vastly different in heaven. From this description, it is apparent that our current bodies would not be acceptable in such a place.1 The Bible poses the question, "But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" (1 Corinthians 15:35). The answer to the question is given in a series of comparisons:2

Bodies in Heaven Mortal Body Resurrection Body
perishable-- imperishable
dishonor-- glory
weak-- powerful
natural--- spiritual

To a certain degree, we will be given some of the characteristics of God in heaven.3 Without at least the dimensional characteristics of God, we would not be able to see Him, which the Bible says we will do.3

Contrary to the Mormon view of heaven,4 it doesn't seem that people in heaven will be either male or female. Jesus was asked a complicated question about heaven by the Sadducees (a religious sect that did not believe in the resurrection of the dead) that directly leads us to this conclusion.5 The Sadducees gave a scenario of a woman who married 7 men (sequentially, since they all died prematurely) in her lifetime. They asked whose wife she would be in heaven. Jesus answered:

"You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (Matthew 22:29-30)

In other words, there will be no marriage or sexual differences among those in heaven, since reproduction is unnecessary. This concept is supported by other biblical verses that indicate that males and females are spiritually equal.6 The same concept applies to the races.7 I doubt that there will be racial differences in heaven.

The idea that we will no longer be married is disturbing to some people. Personally, I like to be married. From an earthly perspective, the dissolution of marriage in heaven doesn't sound like a good thing. However, in heaven, we will be "married" to Jesus, who will be our spiritual "husband."8 If you are not currently a follower of Jesus Christ, you cannot understand what this will be like, and it will probably not have any appeal for you. However, if you have experienced the "highs" of following Jesus as He leads you, you will have a glimpse of how awesome this experience will be. God would not take away something good if He did not replace it with something better. Not only will we be changed, but Paul says that we cannot even imagine the kinds of things God has prepared for us:

but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." (1 Corinthians 2:9)

Besides receiving a new body, those who enter heaven will be given a new name9 and will be incapable of committing sin.10 Therefore, all the problems we have by being mean to each other will be gone. We will be able to enjoy each other's company without the fear of being hurt by anyone.

No need for marriage and childrenJesus made it clear that angels do not marry and have children.5 He also indicated that we will be like the angels in that regard.5 God has allowed the human race to increase dramatically in numbers, so that there will be billions of God's people in heaven. There can be no further reproduction in heaven, because it would violate God's principle of free will and voluntary choice. All humans are required to choose to accept God or reject Him. If children were born in heaven, they would have no ability to choose to accept or reject God. This is because there is no allowance for rebellion and sin in heaven. For example, we know that angles do not receive grace,11 but are condemned on their first act of disobedience to God.12 Therefore, any children born would be forced to accept God - something God never does. This does not necessarily mean that God is necessarily finished producing spiritual creatures. It is possible that God could create another universe to allow other spiritual creatures the ability to choose God and enter into heaven. However, this is mere speculation.

Conclusion Although marriage is good and represents the most intimate relationship we can experience on earth, it should not be idolized. If you love your spouse more than God then he/she has become an idol. The most important commandment is to love God "with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind."13 We will be with our loved ones in heaven (for those who believe). However, we will not be married to our spouses, since that relationship will be superseded by our relationship with Jesus, since we will be "married" to Jesus. This is not the description of a sexual relationship, but a description of an intimacy that is only approximated by what exists between a husband and a wife. Marriage on earth is merely a glimpse of the relationship God intends to have with us in heaven. It is the purpose for which we were created. Religion that substitutes marriage and family as an idol in place of God is a false religion.


B3 Blessings and Peace!
baby3 Posted - 04/10/2012 : 19:32:11
quote:
Originally posted by God4me

quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul

quote:
Originally posted by baby3

quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul

quote:
Nowhwere in the new testament Church, In the Bible, Does it say we can pray to the departed saints, If you did and one answeared you, You know it would be a demon pretnding to be a saint.



http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Revelation 5:8

quote:
This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.

They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God.

Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us.

We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.

Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God.

Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.






OK That is a good answer but which saint went to heaven and did not? Why or how could we be sure they are their they may have had a sin that was very bad and we did not know of it.This is why only praying to God is safe,cause God does hear all the prayers of the saints.Jesus said pray to the Father and ask anything in MY name and it shall be given to you,In the Lords name not in anyone else's right?



The souls of the saints (who are with God) are in heaven due to God's mercy when they reconciled their sins against man and God.

Saints on Earth pray for intercession through (and with) the saints in Heaven. Souls speak to souls.

Souls of the faithful are holy "be holy as My Father in heaven in Holy."

The heavenly host of angels are holy, Mary the Mother of God is holy. Holy souls join together to form the Communion of Saints.

P.S. Sainthood in the Catholic Church is a grassroot yet formal process. The process takes multiple number of years and generally requires proof through a miraculous action of God through the proposed saint.





1)As soon as a person because a born again Christian, They are a Saint, What is all this rubish about taking years to become a saint??.
Yor problem is,
You believe the ppe's porkies and the catholiv con-men ratheer than the Bible.

2)There is no such thing as a catholic saint, To be a saint, You have to be a Cgristian, And catholics aren't Christians.
You problem is,
You believe the pope's porkies and the catholic con-men rather than the Bible.



Where the hell is Atrilias?? He is as bad as I am in spelling I can remember when he made me fixz my crap!!!!What's this???B3
baby3 Posted - 04/10/2012 : 19:23:45
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul

quote:
Nowhwere in the new testament Church, In the Bible, Does it say we can pray to the departed saints, If you did and one answeared you, You know it would be a demon pretnding to be a saint.



http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Revelation 5:8

quote:
This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.

They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God.

Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us.

We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.

Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God.

Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.







HI I read your site and I was wondering it mentioned secret things that the other side would know do the priests know these things? Why would we be told not to go there? Someone knows something right?B3
God4me Posted - 04/06/2012 : 23:59:17
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli

quote:



1)Nowhere does the Bible in the new testament Church show where the dead talk to the living, That is because it was forbiden by God.


already showed you where this is with jesus talking to moses and elijah. god did forbid soothsaying and charmers and those that consult spirits etc.. but that is completely different than praying to a saint.

quote:
Moses & Elijah talking to Jesus, wasn't a communication between the departed and Christians, It was a special one of with Jesus, Besides that was still in the old testament, AS the new testament wasn't here until Jesus died and rose agian and sent the Holy Spirit to the Church, Then they were living inthe new order of God's Church.


baloney g4. stop making excuses. jesus conversed with moses and elijah. he is our example.. maybe he isn't yours? i'm not interested in your timelines or in your new world order..

quote:
You don't see the dead talking to the living in the book of Acts, Or the letter to the Churches.
PLEASE NOTE, Moses and Elijah wasn't interceeding, They were just speaking.


actually paul does pray for the dead and also comments on those baptizing for the dead in his letters. what i don't see in the book of acts or in the letters are people being slain in the spirit. sorry you lose again.

and yes moses and elijah were talking... most catholic practice only involves intercession but here we do see that the saints can actually also talk to us. this helps support such things as lourdes... thanks bro for pointing that out.

quote:
2)WOW, You catholics go from bad to worse, Now you pray to Angels, And Angels aren't saints.



why is that from bad to worse? there are clear biblical examples of angels speaking to humans. and angels are holy right? that is what the word saint means holy. and angels are holy.

acts 10:22 Who said: Cornelius, a centurion, a just man and one that fears God, and having good testimony from all the nation of the Jews, received an answer of an holy angel, to send for you into his house And to hear words of you.

the word here for holy is hagios and is the same word used for saints.. looke like the catholics are right again.





1)Paul never prayed for the dead, Neither was he making a doctrine out of baptising for the dead.
There was a group of people who believed in baptism for the dead, So Paul was telling them, If you don't believe in the resurrection, Why do you baptis for the dead.


2)There is a big difference between an Angel coming and speaking to us, And praying to one..WAKE UP.
You said,
[Quote]
and angels are holy right? that is what the word saint means holy. and angels are holy.
[End quote].

I take it you are joking, It has gone April fools day you know,.

The Greek word for "Saints" and "Holy" is, "Hagios",
Because a saint means, "Holy, Set apart".
And the Greek word for "Angel" is, "Angelos".

So the Angel the spoke to Cornelios, was a "Hagios Angelios", Not a,
"Hagios Hagios".
STOP TWISTING THE TRUTH.

Holy Saints aren't Angels..WAKE UP.

So, The catholics are wrong..AGAIN.
God4me Posted - 04/06/2012 : 23:39:05
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli

quote:



1)Nowhere does the Bible in the new testament Church show where the dead talk to the living, That is because it was forbiden by God.


already showed you where this is with jesus talking to moses and elijah. god did forbid soothsaying and charmers and those that consult spirits etc.. but that is completely different than praying to a saint.

quote:
Moses & Elijah talking to Jesus, wasn't a communication between the departed and Christians, It was a special one of with Jesus, Besides that was still in the old testament, AS the new testament wasn't here until Jesus died and rose agian and sent the Holy Spirit to the Church, Then they were living inthe new order of God's Church.


baloney g4. stop making excuses. jesus conversed with moses and elijah. he is our example.. maybe he isn't yours? i'm not interested in your timelines or in your new world order..

quote:
You don't see the dead talking to the living in the book of Acts, Or the letter to the Churches.
PLEASE NOTE, Moses and Elijah wasn't interceeding, They were just speaking.


actually paul does pray for the dead and also comments on those baptizing for the dead in his letters. what i don't see in the book of acts or in the letters are people being slain in the spirit. sorry you lose again.

and yes moses and elijah were talking... most catholic practice only involves intercession but here we do see that the saints can actually also talk to us. this helps support such things as lourdes... thanks bro for pointing that out.

quote:
2)WOW, You catholics go from bad to worse, Now you pray to Angels, And Angels aren't saints.



why is that from bad to worse? there are clear biblical examples of angels speaking to humans. and angels are holy right? that is what the word saint means holy. and angels are holy.

acts 10:22 Who said: Cornelius, a centurion, a just man and one that fears God, and having good testimony from all the nation of the Jews, received an answer of an holy angel, to send for you into his house And to hear words of you.

the word here for holy is hagios and is the same word used for saints.. looke like the catholics are right again.




1)Jesus is God, And when He was speaking to Moses and Elijah, He was speaking as God, And He was still under the Old testament.
There is no Biblical refference to the new testament Church comunicating with the departed.
So how can you make a docrine out of it??

God fordids comunications with the dead.
And the Hebrew OT says the dead don't know what it going on in the earth, So how can they hear you prayers??.
God4me Posted - 04/06/2012 : 23:32:37
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul

quote:
Originally posted by baby3

quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul

quote:
Nowhwere in the new testament Church, In the Bible, Does it say we can pray to the departed saints, If you did and one answeared you, You know it would be a demon pretnding to be a saint.



http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Revelation 5:8

quote:
This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.

They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God.

Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us.

We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.

Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God.

Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.






OK That is a good answer but which saint went to heaven and did not? Why or how could we be sure they are their they may have had a sin that was very bad and we did not know of it.This is why only praying to God is safe,cause God does hear all the prayers of the saints.Jesus said pray to the Father and ask anything in MY name and it shall be given to you,In the Lords name not in anyone else's right?



The souls of the saints (who are with God) are in heaven due to God's mercy when they reconciled their sins against man and God.

Saints on Earth pray for intercession through (and with) the saints in Heaven. Souls speak to souls.

Souls of the faithful are holy "be holy as My Father in heaven in Holy."

The heavenly host of angels are holy, Mary the Mother of God is holy. Holy souls join together to form the Communion of Saints.

P.S. Sainthood in the Catholic Church is a grassroot yet formal process. The process takes multiple number of years and generally requires proof through a miraculous action of God through the proposed saint.





1)As soon as a person because a born again Christian, They are a Saint, What is all this rubish about taking years to become a saint??.
Yor problem is,
You believe the ppe's porkies and the catholiv con-men ratheer than the Bible.

2)There is no such thing as a catholic saint, To be a saint, You have to be a Cgristian, And catholics aren't Christians.
You problem is,
You believe the pope's porkies and the catholic con-men rather than the Bible.
God4me Posted - 04/06/2012 : 23:27:23
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul

quote:
Originally posted by baby3

quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul

quote:
Nowhwere in the new testament Church, In the Bible, Does it say we can pray to the departed saints, If you did and one answeared you, You know it would be a demon pretnding to be a saint.



http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Revelation 5:8

quote:
This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.

They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God.

Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us.

We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints.

Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God.

Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.






OK That is a good answer but which saint went to heaven and did not? Why or how could we be sure they are their they may have had a sin that was very bad and we did not know of it.This is why only praying to God is safe,cause God does hear all the prayers of the saints.Jesus said pray to the Father and ask anything in MY name and it shall be given to you,In the Lords name not in anyone else's right?



The souls of the saints (who are with God) are in heaven due to God's mercy when they reconciled their sins against man and God.

Saints on Earth pray for intercession through (and with) the saints in Heaven. Souls speak to souls.

Souls of the faithful are holy "be holy as My Father in heaven in Holy."

The heavenly host of angels are holy, Mary the Mother of God is holy. Holy souls join together to form the Communion of Saints.

P.S. Sainthood in the Catholic Church is a grassroot yet formal process. The process takes multiple number of years and generally requires proof through a miraculous action of God through the proposed saint.






There is no Biblical teaching of praying to the departed saints, There id no Biblical teaching of the departed saints praying for us.
There is no Biblical teaching of us praying for the dead.

The Hebrew OT scriptures say the dead don't know waht is going on in the earth, So how can they hear our prayers???.

Your problem is, You believe the pope's porkies and the
catholic con-men rather than the Bible.
God4me Posted - 04/06/2012 : 23:22:20
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul

quote:
3)The Church, [The born again Christians] have been raptured to heaven in Rev 5, So, Rev 5 has nothing to do with the Church age.
It is the same with Rev 8.

So even if the saints in heaven were interceding for people, [Which their not], You can't link it to the Church age.

The Old Testament was under law.
The New Testament is under grace, [Not works]..And
The Tribulation period, [Rev 4, Onwards] Is under wrath.
And the Church is under grace..Not wrath...Lk 21: 34--36.
1 Thess 5: 9.

So, You are wrong on both acounts,
PS, bewellmysoul, Your soul will never bewell with lies like you post.




Your theology rises out of the imaginations of one man in 1882:

quote:
The other group that adopted Margaret Macdonald’s idea was the Brethren or Plymouth Brethren organized by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882).

Darby was educated as a lawyer, became an Anglican priest in 1826, but went on to found the Brethren in 1830. Darby visited the Macdonald home in 1830 and first presented the new pre-tribulation rapture doctrine soon thereafter.

The new doctrine was not received unanimously.

"The Roots of Fundamentalism," by Ernest R. Sandeen, in discussing the history of the Brethren, says that Darby introduced the idea of a secret rapture of the church and a gap in prophetic fulfillment between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel.

These beliefs became basic to the system of theology known as dispensationalism.

From 1862 to 1877, Darby lived in and traveled throughout the United States and Canada, spreading his message. He was a very appealing speaker and also intolerant to criticism.

At first he tried to win members of existing Protestant congregations to his sect, but met with little success.

He then spread his end-times message to influential clergymen and laymen in churches in major cities without insisting they leave their denominations.

Two of his converts were James Hall Brookes, pastor of the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church in St. Louis and Adoniram Judson Gordon, pastor of Clarendon St. Baptist Church in Boston.

These two men became leaders of the movement which spread the doctrine throughout the northeast and Midwest during the last quarter of the 19th century.

Dwight L. Moody also accepted the doctrine.

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/issue06/pre-trib.htm




Who has more authority - the Early Church Fathers (Or) John Darby in the late 1800s?




The rapture doctine is in the Bible, So it wasn't started in the 1800s, STOP TELLING LIES.
God4me Posted - 04/06/2012 : 23:18:50
quote:
Originally posted by baby3

Jesus said "The dead know nothing" Why would he say this if the dead could hear us? I always wondered about this verse.I know we ask others to pray for us but we know they are the saints of God because they are part of us,but how can you really be sure that the dead can hear us?One place says the spirit goes back to the Father at death and others say we sleep and then others say we go to heaven if we are good but may go to Purgatory if we did not confess all our sins to be purged and made clean,but that denies the cleansing of Christ when we confess he is our Lord and saviour right?




Good point baby3, The dead don't know what is going on in the earth acording to the Hebrew.
So how can they hear the catholic prayer??.
mikejuli Posted - 04/04/2012 : 04:00:46
quote:



1)Nowhere does the Bible in the new testament Church show where the dead talk to the living, That is because it was forbiden by God.


already showed you where this is with jesus talking to moses and elijah. god did forbid soothsaying and charmers and those that consult spirits etc.. but that is completely different than praying to a saint.

quote:
Moses & Elijah talking to Jesus, wasn't a communication between the departed and Christians, It was a special one of with Jesus, Besides that was still in the old testament, AS the new testament wasn't here until Jesus died and rose agian and sent the Holy Spirit to the Church, Then they were living inthe new order of God's Church.


baloney g4. stop making excuses. jesus conversed with moses and elijah. he is our example.. maybe he isn't yours? i'm not interested in your timelines or in your new world order..

quote:
You don't see the dead talking to the living in the book of Acts, Or the letter to the Churches.
PLEASE NOTE, Moses and Elijah wasn't interceeding, They were just speaking.


actually paul does pray for the dead and also comments on those baptizing for the dead in his letters. what i don't see in the book of acts or in the letters are people being slain in the spirit. sorry you lose again.

and yes moses and elijah were talking... most catholic practice only involves intercession but here we do see that the saints can actually also talk to us. this helps support such things as lourdes... thanks bro for pointing that out.

quote:
2)WOW, You catholics go from bad to worse, Now you pray to Angels, And Angels aren't saints.



why is that from bad to worse? there are clear biblical examples of angels speaking to humans. and angels are holy right? that is what the word saint means holy. and angels are holy.

acts 10:22 Who said: Cornelius, a centurion, a just man and one that fears God, and having good testimony from all the nation of the Jews, received an answer of an holy angel, to send for you into his house And to hear words of you.

the word here for holy is hagios and is the same word used for saints.. looke like the catholics are right again.

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