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Do catholics believe that Jesus went to hell

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[quote][i]Originally posted by bwellmysoul[/i]
[br]It should be considered, what the theology was for Jews of the Second Temple period concerning the afterlife.

And to consider that these theologies exist today for Jews in that they don't believe that their Messiah has come.

And also, that the views expressed in this article seem to be general and opinion based (and may be inaccurate) in that no source material is quoted.  It appears that this author believes that the ideas of the afterlife were amalgamations of human need, and not based first in revelation through God.

http://www.talmidi.co.il/htm/articles/articles54.htm

[quote]The Afterlife

Overview

In Judaism, views of the afterlife vary. They are based on the three main views of death that have developed over time within the Israelite tradition: She’ol, which was a shadow-world of unknowingness, to which people went to after death; in time, after contact with Babylonian and Persian religion, Israelite sages began to feel that She’ol was not enough, hence evolved a belief in the Resurrection of the body in the last days. Finally, the belief in a soul evolved, alongside a belief in the existence of heaven. If one follows through the logic of each, the three views are mutually exclusive, but various Jewish sects in the past and present have tried to reconcile them to include them all.

Talmidaism, unlike Orthodox Rabbinical Judaism, does not make any definitive statement on the nature of the afterlife; it is considered a matter of personal faith.

What follows is a basic description of the three views of the afterlife, and the various attempts to reconcile them.

She’ol (The Shadow-world)

This should not be confused with the Gentile Christian idea of Hell, or the Greek Hellenist idea of Hades; Judaism does not have any belief in Hell. Earliest Yahwism had no concept of the soul; in contrast to the Egyptians, who believed that human beings had a soul which survived them after death, the early Hebrews had no such concept. When a person died, they went to a shadowy under-world, and that was it.

It was believed that this shadow-world existed beneath the earth (Isa. 7:11, 57:9; Ezek. 31:14; Ps. 86:13) simply because that is where bodies were buried. The dead existed there without knowledge or feeling (Job 14:13; Eccl. 9:5). Silence reigned supreme; and oblivion was the fate of those who entered (Ps. 88:13, 94:17; Eccl. 9:10). Hence it was known also as “Dumah” or ‘the abode of silence’ (Ps. 6:6, 30:10, 94:17, 115:17); and there God is not praised (Ps 115. 17; Isa. 38:15). It was an unpleasant, dark, bleak and disorderly land (Job 10:21-22).

The dead existed there as mere shadows or wraiths (= rephaim; Isa 14:9, 26:14; Ps. 88:5), where human beings have no strength to do anything. Sleep was their usual state (Jer. 51:39; Isa. 26:14; Job 14:12), and return from She’ol was not expected or anticipated (2Sam 12:23; Job 7:9-10; 10:21; 14:7).

Hebrew folk mythology held that the gates of She’ol were in the west, where the sun set. Seven gates guarded the approach to the place, at the first of which was a watchman. A stream of water flowed through She’ol (Ps. 18:5; II Sam. 22:5; Bk of Enoch 17:6, 22:9;). Graves were protected by gates and bolts; therefore She’ol was likewise similarly guarded. It was believed to have different compartments for separate clans and families, just like tombs.

The origins of She’ol go back into earliest antiquity, probably the folk beliefs of the earliest Hebrews. Primitive peoples had similar beliefs, believing that caves and hidden entrances led down into the abode of the dead.

What this view of the afterlife did, was to concentrate one’s efforts on what one did in this life. Salvation was very much what God did in this life; and the fact that both the good and the wicked returned to the same dust was a source of consolation to those who saw the wicked prosper and the good remain destitute.

Resurrection

Once the early Hebrews made contact with the Babylonian, Persian and Assyrian religions, with their views in a life after death, it was not enough that a person should exist in a dark shadow-world of unknowingness. It was felt that there had to be something more, so the idea of the resurrection of the body developed. However, Resurrection still assumes no belief in a soul.

The main difficulty was to figure out what the resurrection actually meant. Questions began to arise: In what state was the resurrected body – whole and healthy, or as it was when it died? If a woman was wife to several men during her lifetime, whose wife would she be upon resurrection? Was resurrection universal, or only of the Jewish people, or only of the righteous. And when did this resurrection happen? Was it to form part of the Messianic redemption of Israel, or was it to usher in the final judgment.

It was eventually believed that in the last days, before the Messianic Age (Isa. 24:19; Dan. 12:2), all the dead would be resurrected, all the human race would be judged, the wicked would be sent back to She’ol to dwell in eternal unknowingness, while the righteous would be allowed to dwell on earth and live forever in eternal peace.

The first discontentment with an eternity in She’ol is expressed in Job 14:13-15. In Dan. 12:1-4 (about 165 B.C.) a resurrection of "many . . . that sleep in the dust" is looked forward to. This resurrection included both righteous and wicked, because some would awake to everlasting life, others to “shame and everlasting contempt.”

The Prophet Isaiah said that God says, “Your dead men shall live, my slain shall rise again. . . the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall cover her slain no more" (Isa 26:19-21).

The belief in resurrection gave greater comfort to those who sought justice in the afterlife when it didn’t seem to happen in this life.

Heaven and the Soul

Originally, the Hebrew word shamayim only meant sky; the earliest Hebrews had no belief in heaven, and therefore saw no need for a separate word for it. As the belief in an abode of God and His angels developed – and therefore a separate place for the pious dead - a distinction was made between sky (shamayim) and what we now understand as heaven (shmey ha-shamayim – ‘sky of skies’, or ‘heaven of heavens’, or even ‘highest heaven’; see Deut 10:14, 1Kgs 8:27, 2Chr 2:6, 6:18, Neh 9:6, Ps 115:16). However, in the late Second Temple Period, shamayim was used to mean both sky and heaven.

Many scholars contend that a belief in heaven arose only after contact with other religions, but the embryonic potential for a more developed theology about heaven was already there – for example, where did people like Elijah, Enoch and the other pious dead go? Where did the angels that Jacob saw abide?

Once a theology with regard to the soul being distinct from the body developed, it was inevitable that a belief in heaven should also evolve. Some ancient theologians (eg Philo) thought that the three separate words sometimes used for soul, refer to different aspects of the soul. However, it is more likely that each word marks three different stages in the evolution of the belief in the soul, each generation searching for an existing word to describe the nascent belief: ruach, which normally means ‘spirit’ or ‘breath’; nefesh, which normally means ‘living being’ or ‘life-blood’; and finally neshamah, a word which contains all the ideas of the previous two, and the word used for soul in modern Hebrew. This last word marked the development of a belief that the soul was something distinct from the body, something that survived the body after death.

Once a belief in the soul developed, spurred on by the teaching that holy people avoided She’ol and resurrection altogether to go and dwell with God, curiosity evolved on where the pious actually went. There was a common belief in the pre-existence of the souls of all human beings; therefore there had to be somewhere where the souls existed before life, and after death.

At the time when a belief in heaven came to be more fully developed, it was too late to include the teaching in the Hebrew Scriptures. The later psalmists had already recorded their disagreements with resurrection, declaring that a resurrection was impossible (cf Ps. 88:10, 115:17). A similar view, which made a resurrection unnecessary, was held by the authors of Pss. 49 and 73, who believed that at death only the wicked went to She’ol and that the souls of the righteous went directly to God.

A belief in heaven (where the soul lived eternally, free of the body), gained new impetus with the advent of Platonic thought and Hellenism. Although a belief in the eternity of the soul and heaven did not originate with Hellenism, it gained greater currency amongst Jewish people at that time.

In the late Second Temple Period, around Yeshua`’s time, teachings on heaven became extremely complicated. Some sects believed that Heaven contained seven levels, some ten, some believed there were even more. All the sects had three basic levels of heaven: first, a place where souls were purified of their sins (the lowest heaven); secondly, a place where souls dwelt throughout eternity once purified (the middle heaven); and thirdly, a place which was the exclusive abode of God and his archangels (the highest heaven).

Belief in heaven gave people a sense that there was something more than this life, a purpose greater than what we could see and understand. More than the other two views, it accorded better with what ordinary people experienced in their personal spiritual lives.

Reconciling the various beliefs

It should be noted that the Hebrew bible contains belief in She’ol and resurrection, alongside an embryonic belief in heaven and the soul; yet all three are mutually exclusive. One cannot therefore use scripture to prove or disprove what happens in the afterlife, since different parts of the Miqra contain evidence for and against all three. However, this is what Second Temple Period Judaism tried to do.

The first theological reconciliation came with the development of a belief in a soul; it was considered that the soul was reunited with the body at resurrection. Still, the difficulty remained of where this reanimated body would be – in an earthly paradise, or a heavenly abode. Beliefs in heaven held that the dead were judged at death; this clashed with the resurrection belief that souls were judged at the end of the world upon resurrection. Some sects taught that the soul was judged twice, but it seemed illogical why a soul should be judged, purified, go to heaven, be reunited with their body, be judged again, with the possibility of going back to She’ol.

Modern Judaism

There are few if any who still believe in all the theology surrounding She’ol; if it is retained, it is a merely a place apart from God where the soul goes before going to heaven. Only the Orthodox still believe unwaveringly in the Final Resurrection; the Conservative/Masorti Jews do not lay any great emphasis on it; and the Reform and Liberal Jews have for the most part abandoned belief in the Final Resurrection altogether. The vast majority of Jews believe in a soul and in heaven.

Most Talmidis believe in heaven and a soul, most do not believe in the final resurrection of the dead; a small minority do.

Summary

From the above, one can see how beliefs concerning the afterlife have evolved over time; also how complex they have become. We cannot know for certain what life after death will be like, and we cannot force views and beliefs on the afterlife upon one another. Therefore we can only return to the original Yahwist Israelite mindset – that how we live this life is what ultimately matters, and that YHVH saves us and forgives us in this life.[/quote]
[/quote]

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T O P I C R E V I E W
God4me	Posted - 05/07/2012 : 00:14:55 In the so-called catholics, "Apostles creed", They say Jesus went to hell. Do they really believe it, Or are they telling porkies AGAIN. Remember, The whole world believes hell is a place for the damned, wicked, sinners and spirituall dead people, A place of torment. And thats what the world hears when they hear the catholics quote, "Jesus went to hell". SO, Do you believe Jesus went to hell, OR ARE YOU TELLING PORKIES??. If you meant, "Paradise", You should have said it, As there was only two places in the underworld, Paradise/Abrahams Bosom, And hell.
15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
God4me	Posted - 05/20/2012 : 10:08:09 quote: Originally posted by Faith_at_Large Justification is justification, there are not two types - and don't go telling me that you can be saved without justification. Baby did an excellent job. Not one of your verses said that we are saved by faith Alone. We are saved by Faith apart from works of the law, Amen. But that is not the same thing as faith alone. The Catholic Church does not teach that we are saved by works of the law. AND, we are not saved by works alone either. Works without faith are without merit, just as faith without works is dead. There you go again..TELLING LIES.[1] The scriptures that I gave do say we are saved and justified by faith. Do they say by anythindg eles?? NO..NO.. They don't. There you go again, TELLING LIES [2]. The catholic do say you are justified/saved by works. In fact the council of trent says, "If anyoone says they are justified by faith alone withough works, Let them be anathema". The Bible says, "We are save d by Grace, By faith, NOT BY WORKS. Lest any man should boast". But the catholics boast about being saved/justified by works. Why do you think you do penance, Indulgencies, works of satifaction, and have purgatory??. James isn't talking about salvation what he said, "Can faith withought works save, And, Faith withought works is dead".
Faith_at_Large	Posted - 05/20/2012 : 09:24:16 Justification is justification, there are not two types - and don't go telling me that you can be saved without justification. Baby did an excellent job. Not one of your verses said that we are saved by faith Alone. We are saved by Faith apart from works of the law, Amen. But that is not the same thing as faith alone. The Catholic Church does not teach that we are saved by works of the law. AND, we are not saved by works alone either. Works without faith are without merit, just as faith without works is dead.
God4me	Posted - 05/19/2012 : 22:28:26 quote: Originally posted by baby3 quote: Originally posted by God4me quote: Originally posted by mikejuli i would say that between the catholics and the pentacostals, there are absolutely more legalistic works in the pentacostal sect. they say faith alone but are riddles with works.. many of which have been exposed right on this site while talking to g4. however, g4 doesn't realise that the pentacostals are more on the arminian side of salvation and as such the faith alone is an odd statement for him to make. what i think is that he is listening to too many different voices and doesn't have a clue about the truth. catholics on the other hand believe we are saved by grace. through faith and that faith isn't just assent, but is proven by action or works. not the works of torah which paul rejected.. but works of faith. it is the only consistent belief system out there. g4 doesnt' like that because he knows we are right. Christians know we are saved by grace, through faith, Not bu works. catholics believe the Bible is wrong and they are right when they say. "We are saved by grace through faith AND WORKS". Which make the word of God none effect. Jesus wasn't only speaking to the pharisees in Mk 7: 13, It applies to the catholic as well. It sums up the catholic traditions perfectly. G4, it is both as you will see here, not just faith but both cause faith without works is dead!! Like you!! Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 3:20, 28; Galatians 2:16 and James 2:24; Matthew 19:16-21 1.Saved by grace A.(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." B.(Rom. 3:20, 28) - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." C.(Galatians 2:16) - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." 2.Saved by works A.(James 2:24) - "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." B.(Matthew 19:16-17) - "And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who "say" that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works. In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do. There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith. B3 Enjoy!!! You have fallen for the same lie as the catholics, James isn't talking about works for salvation, If he was, That means you have to feed and clothe people, Offer your child to be killed and protect people. What will happen to those who can't afford to feed and clothe people, Whar wil happen to those who don't any children to offer up to be killed??. What happens to those who can't protect peole??, Are you saying they are all lost??. WE don't keep the commadment to get saved, We keep them because you ARE SAVED, That the difference between the TRUE Church and the catholics.
God4me	Posted - 05/19/2012 : 22:18:13 quote: Originally posted by baby3 quote: Originally posted by God4me quote: Originally posted by Faith_at_Large Catholics know that it takes more than mental assent. But people like you condemn us for that belief saying that we are "adding" to Christ's work by even suggesting that we are saved by belief alone. True Faith is no mental assent, it is a lifestyle choice whereby we put our faith in Christ and obey what He has taught us. This I have always done. And yet, I am often berated by Protestants for going to Church "every Sunday", or repenting of my sins, or even feeling that it is necessary to refrain from sin. I don't consider any of things to be obeying the Pope over Christ. The Pope has affirmed the Biblical teachings, and these are all Biblical, so why call me nasty names for obeying Christ to the best of my ability? I know catholics give more then mentalassent, THEY HAVE TO DO WORKS FOR THEIR SALVATION, Which is an insult to Jesus. Hey meat head!!!DAH!! Jesus worked very hard teaching and giving sermons and feeding people and raising the dead and without PAY! and then he did not take the easy way out he stood his ground and that's what you really hate about the Catholics they stand their grounds WHY! Because they are planted on the ROCK! And the gates of hell will not prevail against it!!! B3!!! Jesus didn't do those works to urn His salvation, He was already The Son of God, We[The TRUE Church], Do the same works as Jesus did. But unlike the catholics, We don't do works to get salvation.
God4me	Posted - 05/19/2012 : 22:12:51 quote: Originally posted by mikejuli quote: Originally posted by God4me Christians know we are saved by grace, through faith, Not bu works. Then why are you so works oriented? I know the truth g4. Your sect is nothing but a charade. It claims faith alone but doesn't practice it at all quote: catholics believe the Bible is wrong and they are right when they say. "We are saved by grace through faith AND WORKS". Which make the word of God none effect. Jesus wasn't only speaking to the pharisees in Mk 7: 13, It applies to the catholic as well. It sums up the catholic traditions perfectly. Actually it sums you up perfectly. I know from experience who the real Pharisees are and it isn't the Catholics. It's you and your legalistic sects. [1]Of cause we do works, Jesus said we would do the same works that He did, We heal the sick, cast out demons,and do miracles. But they aren't works to saved us, They are works because we are ALREADY saved, Whereas the catholic HVE to do works for their salvation, Otherwise tren says they are anathema. [2]catholics are the ones that have the so-called tradition, So Jesus was talking about you when He said, "Your tradtions have made the word of God none effect", STOP TELLLING LIES.
baby3	Posted - 05/19/2012 : 15:41:15 quote: Originally posted by God4me quote: Originally posted by mikejuli i would say that between the catholics and the pentacostals, there are absolutely more legalistic works in the pentacostal sect. they say faith alone but are riddles with works.. many of which have been exposed right on this site while talking to g4. however, g4 doesn't realise that the pentacostals are more on the arminian side of salvation and as such the faith alone is an odd statement for him to make. what i think is that he is listening to too many different voices and doesn't have a clue about the truth. catholics on the other hand believe we are saved by grace. through faith and that faith isn't just assent, but is proven by action or works. not the works of torah which paul rejected.. but works of faith. it is the only consistent belief system out there. g4 doesnt' like that because he knows we are right. Christians know we are saved by grace, through faith, Not bu works. catholics believe the Bible is wrong and they are right when they say. "We are saved by grace through faith AND WORKS". Which make the word of God none effect. Jesus wasn't only speaking to the pharisees in Mk 7: 13, It applies to the catholic as well. It sums up the catholic traditions perfectly. G4, it is both as you will see here, not just faith but both cause faith without works is dead!! Like you!! Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 3:20, 28; Galatians 2:16 and James 2:24; Matthew 19:16-21 1.Saved by grace A.(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." B.(Rom. 3:20, 28) - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." C.(Galatians 2:16) - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." 2.Saved by works A.(James 2:24) - "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." B.(Matthew 19:16-17) - "And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who "say" that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works. In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do. There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith. B3 Enjoy!!!
baby3	Posted - 05/19/2012 : 15:30:42 quote: Originally posted by God4me quote: Originally posted by Faith_at_Large Catholics know that it takes more than mental assent. But people like you condemn us for that belief saying that we are "adding" to Christ's work by even suggesting that we are saved by belief alone. True Faith is no mental assent, it is a lifestyle choice whereby we put our faith in Christ and obey what He has taught us. This I have always done. And yet, I am often berated by Protestants for going to Church "every Sunday", or repenting of my sins, or even feeling that it is necessary to refrain from sin. I don't consider any of things to be obeying the Pope over Christ. The Pope has affirmed the Biblical teachings, and these are all Biblical, so why call me nasty names for obeying Christ to the best of my ability? I know catholics give more then mentalassent, THEY HAVE TO DO WORKS FOR THEIR SALVATION, Which is an insult to Jesus. Hey meat head!!!DAH!! Jesus worked very hard teaching and giving sermons and feeding people and raising the dead and without PAY! and then he did not take the easy way out he stood his ground and that's what you really hate about the Catholics they stand their grounds WHY! Because they are planted on the ROCK! And the gates of hell will not prevail against it!!! B3!!!
mikejuli	Posted - 05/19/2012 : 10:26:51 quote: Originally posted by God4me Christians know we are saved by grace, through faith, Not bu works. Then why are you so works oriented? I know the truth g4. Your sect is nothing but a charade. It claims faith alone but doesn't practice it at all quote: catholics believe the Bible is wrong and they are right when they say. "We are saved by grace through faith AND WORKS". Which make the word of God none effect. Jesus wasn't only speaking to the pharisees in Mk 7: 13, It applies to the catholic as well. It sums up the catholic traditions perfectly. Actually it sums you up perfectly. I know from experience who the real Pharisees are and it isn't the Catholics. It's you and your legalistic sects.
God4me	Posted - 05/19/2012 : 08:18:57 quote: Originally posted by Faith_at_Large quote: Originally posted by God4me quote: Originally posted by Faith_at_Large So which is it? Belief alone, or do we have to actually live as Christ wanted us to live? You seem to waffle. If you knew the Bible, You wouldn't ask that question. We are saved/justified by faith ALONE. The Bible is quite clear about that. And we live by Faith, [The just shall live by FAITH". Once a person is saved, They have the sanctifying grace of God to live for Jesus. But catholics make "Living for Jesus", A work for salvation. No where in the Bible does it say that we are saved by Faith alone, that is a manmade tradition that contradicts the Bible. But, you said we live by Faith and that is Biblical, and yet you seem to think that "living" by faith does not include any good works. If you didn't think that, then you would not be condemning me for thinking that it does. I believe that faith is more than mental assent, that it includes obedience to Christ. You keep saying I am wrong. So how does one "live" by Faith if you think that this means doing absolutely nothing other than "beleive"? [1]You said, No where in the Bible does it say that we are saved by Faith alone, that is a manmade tradition that contradicts the Bible. [End quote]. See Eph 2: 8--9. Tirus 3: 5. Rom 3: 20--28. Rom 5: 1. YOU WERE SAYING??.. Do you ever stop telling lies??. [2]Living by faith, Is believing the Bible and accepting that Jesus has done it all, [For us], And all we have to do is, Enjoy the blessings that Jesus has provided for us, BY FAITH. Faith, Comes by heaing. Rom 10: 17. Made strong by love. Gal 5: 6 Activated by actions. James 2: 22. Mk 10: 50--52. Lk 17: 12-14. Sees the end result. Heb 11: 1. Speaks the end result. Lk 17: 5--6. Faith receives. Mk 5: 25-29, & v34. PLEASE NOTE, All the above, Come after we are saved, Not to save us. Faith will be obedient to Christ, But that doesn't mean we have to work for salvation.
Faith_at_Large	Posted - 05/19/2012 : 07:29:38 quote: Originally posted by God4me quote: Originally posted by Faith_at_Large So which is it? Belief alone, or do we have to actually live as Christ wanted us to live? You seem to waffle. If you knew the Bible, You wouldn't ask that question. We are saved/justified by faith ALONE. The Bible is quite clear about that. And we live by Faith, [The just shall live by FAITH". Once a person is saved, They have the sanctifying grace of God to live for Jesus. But catholics make "Living for Jesus", A work for salvation. No where in the Bible does it say that we are saved by Faith alone, that is a manmade tradition that contradicts the Bible. But, you said we live by Faith and that is Biblical, and yet you seem to think that "living" by faith does not include any good works. If you didn't think that, then you would not be condemning me for thinking that it does. I believe that faith is more than mental assent, that it includes obedience to Christ. You keep saying I am wrong. So how does one "live" by Faith if you think that this means doing absolutely nothing other than "beleive"?
God4me	Posted - 05/19/2012 : 05:24:24 quote: Originally posted by mikejuli i would say that between the catholics and the pentacostals, there are absolutely more legalistic works in the pentacostal sect. they say faith alone but are riddles with works.. many of which have been exposed right on this site while talking to g4. however, g4 doesn't realise that the pentacostals are more on the arminian side of salvation and as such the faith alone is an odd statement for him to make. what i think is that he is listening to too many different voices and doesn't have a clue about the truth. catholics on the other hand believe we are saved by grace. through faith and that faith isn't just assent, but is proven by action or works. not the works of torah which paul rejected.. but works of faith. it is the only consistent belief system out there. g4 doesnt' like that because he knows we are right. Christians know we are saved by grace, through faith, Not bu works. catholics believe the Bible is wrong and they are right when they say. "We are saved by grace through faith AND WORKS". Which make the word of God none effect. Jesus wasn't only speaking to the pharisees in Mk 7: 13, It applies to the catholic as well. It sums up the catholic traditions perfectly.
mikejuli	Posted - 05/19/2012 : 04:35:12 i would say that between the catholics and the pentacostals, there are absolutely more legalistic works in the pentacostal sect. they say faith alone but are riddles with works.. many of which have been exposed right on this site while talking to g4. however, g4 doesn't realise that the pentacostals are more on the arminian side of salvation and as such the faith alone is an odd statement for him to make. what i think is that he is listening to too many different voices and doesn't have a clue about the truth. catholics on the other hand believe we are saved by grace. through faith and that faith isn't just assent, but is proven by action or works. not the works of torah which paul rejected.. but works of faith. it is the only consistent belief system out there. g4 doesnt' like that because he knows we are right.
God4me	Posted - 05/18/2012 : 23:23:44 quote: Originally posted by Faith_at_Large So which is it? Belief alone, or do we have to actually live as Christ wanted us to live? You seem to waffle. If you knew the Bible, You wouldn't ask that question. We are saved/justified by faith ALONE. The Bible is quite clear about that. And we live by Faith, [The just shall live by FAITH". Once a person is saved, They have the sanctifying grace of God to live for Jesus. But catholics make "Living for Jesus", A work for salvation.
Faith_at_Large	Posted - 05/18/2012 : 11:28:56 So which is it? Belief alone, or do we have to actually live as Christ wanted us to live? You seem to waffle.
God4me	Posted - 05/18/2012 : 11:11:26 quote: Originally posted by Faith_at_Large Catholics know that it takes more than mental assent. But people like you condemn us for that belief saying that we are "adding" to Christ's work by even suggesting that we are saved by belief alone. True Faith is no mental assent, it is a lifestyle choice whereby we put our faith in Christ and obey what He has taught us. This I have always done. And yet, I am often berated by Protestants for going to Church "every Sunday", or repenting of my sins, or even feeling that it is necessary to refrain from sin. I don't consider any of things to be obeying the Pope over Christ. The Pope has affirmed the Biblical teachings, and these are all Biblical, so why call me nasty names for obeying Christ to the best of my ability? I know catholics give more then mentalassent, THEY HAVE TO DO WORKS FOR THEIR SALVATION, Which is an insult to Jesus.

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