| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Greatest I am 2 |
Posted - 05/10/2012 : 07:43:30
Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.
Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.
The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.
If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.
Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.
Jesus would not condone such a thing.
Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.
To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.
This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.
In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_fjBkwxc&feature=related
Regards
DL
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Greatest I am 2 |
Posted - 07/23/2012 : 14:02:47
If I forgive you a sin towards me, be you repentant or not, is the debt paid?
Regards
DL |
| baby3 |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 14:20:03
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.
Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.
The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.
If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.
Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.
Jesus would not condone such a thing.
Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.
To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.
This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.
In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_fjBkwxc&feature=related
Regards
DL
Here's how I see it,Even if you ask for forgiveness only God can forgive you and that is because he See's into your heart and know your heart and you and your works are judged by your hearts intentions. Now if the person that is offended forgives you this may change with the Lord but none of us really can say he forgives all kinds of sins because some sins are an abomination to him this I leave to the Lord and try to be as fair as I can because they will face him one day no matter what we say or how much he is forgiven everything will be exposed and explained for all to see and know. |
| baby3 |
Posted - 05/13/2012 : 19:33:53
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.
Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.
The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.
If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.
Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.
Jesus would not condone such a thing.
Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.
To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.
This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.
In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_fjBkwxc&feature=related
Regards
DL
 Jesus suffered more then words could everyday and He forgave everyone even those who denied him,unless you believe he is God incarnate ten you will never believe no matter what anyone can tell you.
Medical experts, historians and archaeologists have examined in detail the execution that Jesus Christ voluntarily endured. All agree that he suffered one of the most gruelling and painful forms of capital punishment ever devised by man. Here is a brief summary of some of the things we know about his last hours from history, archaeology and medicine…
Severe stress, even before the abuse began
Jesus had the weight of the world on his shoulders. Even before the crucifixion began, he clearly had physical symptoms associated with severe stress. The night before the execution, his disciples reported seeing Jesus in “agony” on the Mount of Olives. Not only did he not sleep all night, but he seems to have been sweating profusely. So great was the stress that tiny blood vessels were rupturing in his sweat glands and emitting as great red drops that fell to the ground (see Luke 22:44). This symptom of severe stress is called hematohidrosis. (Learn more…)
Jesus was physically exhausted and in danger of going into shock unless he received fluids (which he apparently did not). This is the man that the Roman soldiers tortured.
Torture by beating with Roman scourges
Having previously been beaten by the Jews, it was now the Romans’ turn. The beatings administered by Roman soldiers are well known to be very bloody, leaving lacerations all over the body. Romans designed their whips to cut the flesh from their victim’s bodies. These beatings were designed to be painful to the extreme. It would also cause a fluid build up around his lungs. In addition, a crown of thorns was forced into his scalp which was capable of severely irritating major nerves in his head, causing increasing and excruciating pain, as the hours wore on.
In Christ’s severely stressed condition, these beatings were easily enough to kill him. His body was horribly bruised, cut and bleeding. Having had no nourishment for many hours, and having lost fluids through profuse sweating and much bleeding, Jesus would have been severely dehydrated. This brutal torture would certainly be sending him into what doctors call “shock,” and shock kills.
In addition, Jesus was forced to carry the the wooden beam on which he would die. Imagine the effect of carrying a heavy weight if you were in that condition.
Crucifixion
Hung completely naked before the crowd, the pain and damage caused by crucifixion were designed to be so devilishly intense that one would continually long for death, but could linger for days with no relief.
According to Dr. Frederick Zugibe, piercing of the median nerve of the hands with a nail can cause pain so incredible that even morphine won’t help, “severe, excruciating, burning pain, like lightning bolts traversing the arm into the spinal cord.” Rupturing the foot’s plantar nerve with a nail would have a similarly horrible effect.
Furthermore, the position of the body on a cross is designed to make it extremely difficult to breathe.
Frederick Farrar described the intended, torturous effect: “For indeed a death by crucifixion seems to include all that pain and death can have of horrible and ghastly—dizziness, cramp, thirst, starvation, sleeplessness, traumatic fever, tetanus, shame, publicity of shame, long continuance of torment, horror of anticipation, mortification of untended wounds—all intensified just up to the point at which they can be endured at all, but all stopping just short of the point which would give to the suffer the relief of unconsciousness.”
One doctor has called it “a symphony of pain” produced by every movement, with every breath; even a slight breeze on his skin could bring screaming pain at this point.
Medical examiner, Dr. Frederick Zugibe, believes Christ died from shock due to loss of blood and fluid, plus traumatic shock from his injuries, plus cardiogenic shock causing Christ’s heart to fail.
At the ninth hour (the time at which a sacrificial lamb was killed everyday in the Jewish temple), Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated,“My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” and soon died, after saying “It is finished.” At about this moment is probably the time when the temple’s priestly ram’s horn would have been blown that day, announcing that the priests had completed the sacrifice of the lamb for the sins of Israel. Also at that moment, the great, thick curtain that closed the Holy of Holies room from view, ripped open from top to bottom.
-Mark 15:34 and Matthew 27:46
James Thompson believed that Jesus did not die from exhaustion, the beatings or the 3 hours of crucifixion, but that he died from agony of mind producing rupture of the heart. His evidence comes from what happened when the Roman soldier pierced Christ’s left side. The spear released a sudden flow of blood and water (John 19:34). Not only does this prove that Jesus was already dead when pierced, but Thompson believes it is also evidence of cardiac rupture. Respected physiologist Samuel Houghton believed that only the combination of crucifixion and rupture of the heart could produce this result.
Relevant Questions
Is Jesus Christ a man, or is he God? Answer
Was Jesus God, manifest in human form? Answer
If Jesus is God, how could he die? If Jesus died on the cross, then how can he be alive today? Answer
Is Jesus Christ really God? Answer
If Jesus was the Son of God, why did He call Himself the Son of Man? Answer
Trinity—How can one God be three persons? Answer
There is no question that it was painful beyond words.
Biblically, it is clear that Jesus chose and willed His moment of death. That moment was induced not by pain, emotional stress, heart attack, or any other, but by His will. Though fully human, He is also fully divine. As God, He could not die from external sources, but only of His own volition and will.
Near the end, a criminal beside him mocked, “If you are the Christ, save yourself and us.” Little did this sinner know that the man he was speaking to hung there voluntarily. He was speaking to our Creator, capable of releasing all the power in the universe and beyond, and easily saving himself. Jesus remained in this agony and shame, not because he was powerless, but because of his incredible love for humanity. He suffered to provide the needed way of salvation for you and me.
If you would like to learn how to have a personal relationship with Christ, click here. …or go to our Good News home page, Is Jesus Christ the Answer to Your Questions? (ChristianAnswers.Net/gospel) Go
You can read an illustrated summary of the life and death of Jesus (click here). Better yet, start at the very beginning of God’s story to understand what God did and why Jesus died. Go… (ChristianAnswers.Net/godstory)
We have provided much more information and documentation about Jesus’s life, death and resurrection at ChristianAnswers.Net/jesus .
For further information on the subject of Christ’s death, we highly recommend "How Jesus Died: The Final 18 Hours," a half-hour Christian video. This informative production can help you and others better appreciate what Jesus suffered to save us. It can be purchased on-line. Go… or by calling 800-332-2261
You can read about Christ’s death in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - each of these disciples reported what happened, with greater or lesser details depending on their main focus.
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| baby3 |
Posted - 05/13/2012 : 19:27:26
DL You do not believe because you have no faith it is not a question of God or is there a God,you just are a man of little faith and God will keep you blind to the truth because you deny the Holy Spirit and that is punishable to death! That is the only unpardonable sin. |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 05/12/2012 : 18:30:41
Perhaps God should have simply smashed the world into oblivion and left all its souls in Hell so He could start again fresh with more obedient drones without Freewill.
Then there would have been no need to come down here for us.
I would hate to be your child DL. You would just slaughter me if I did not live up to your expectations and go make another child until you got it right.
Or perhaps you would lobotomize me. That is the alternative to free will. |
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 05/12/2012 : 17:43:21
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
Yep. It was good of God to have his son needlessly murdered.
To fools.
Regards
DL
You put too much stock in this life. Jesus rose from tbe dead to show us that He can and will raise His faithful - body and soul.
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| Greatest I am 2 |
Posted - 05/12/2012 : 12:52:04
Yep. It was good of God to have his son needlessly murdered.
To fools.
Regards
DL |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 05/11/2012 : 10:00:35
DL, God is Trinitarian in nature. The Father is in the Son and vice-versa. And being a mother, I know that in sacrificing the Son, the Father did sacrifice Himself.
What a selfish world you live in where you think that every man must live for himself and never do for anyone else.
What God did was selfless and perfect. And you mock Him.
The Son did what He did willingly. He laid down His own life for us. This gesture was symbollic as well as genuine and real. This was the ultimate gesture that wiped out all the false gods who demanded parents sacrifice their own children, and gave us so much more.
The Body and Blood of Christ are our spiritual food that nourishes our soul and helps us to tranform into something greater than ourselves. This was made possible through Christ's own sacrifice.
God is love. Pure and unfettered. |
| Greatest I am 2 |
Posted - 05/11/2012 : 07:24:47
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
DL,
Mortal sin in the Catholic Church was three requirements.
1) Complete knowledge that a thought, word, deed or action is a sin.
2) Free consent of the will to commit the sin.
3) Grievious matter.
A person who turns from God - makes themselves their own victim of sin.
The Commandments are a forewarning to people that certain actions bind people - up into themselves; and away from God's will for them.
Is sin evil and who created evil and is the cause of all evil?
Regards
DL
You know the answer to this.
Yes but you do not. Bob and weave away or get honest and return.
Regards
DL
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| Greatest I am 2 |
Posted - 05/11/2012 : 07:23:02
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
bwell
If Jesus spoke of how we should forgive, and we do, are you suggesting that a sin must be forgiven twice?
That would not be justice now would it?
Regards
DL
In order to stop the transferance of sin, the person harmed must will him/herself to forgive the person who inflicted the damage.
In addition, the person who did the initial harm, must repent of their action, ask for God's forgiveness and mercy, and will him/herself to never commit that sin again.
So a dept must be paid twice in your view.
Immoral that.
Regards
DL |
| Greatest I am 2 |
Posted - 05/11/2012 : 07:20:10
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
Faith
Only a self-inflated ego could believe that they are powerful enough to hurt God.
Are you that powerful?
Regards
DL
God is LOVE. No power is necessary. All it takes is for one of us to turn from Him and He is wounded. Just because it won't kill Him does not mean that it does not hurt Him.
If God was love then he would have sacrificed himself and not his son.
You are a loving parent.
If you created a requirement of death, would you show your love by stepping up or would you have your child murdered?
Regards
DL |
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 05/11/2012 : 06:31:26
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
bwell
If Jesus spoke of how we should forgive, and we do, are you suggesting that a sin must be forgiven twice?
That would not be justice now would it?
Regards
DL
In order to stop the transferance of sin, the person harmed must will him/herself to forgive the person who inflicted the damage.
In addition, the person who did the initial harm, must repent of their action, ask for God's forgiveness and mercy, and will him/herself to never commit that sin again.
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| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 05/11/2012 : 06:27:16
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
DL,
Mortal sin in the Catholic Church was three requirements.
1) Complete knowledge that a thought, word, deed or action is a sin.
2) Free consent of the will to commit the sin.
3) Grievious matter.
A person who turns from God - makes themselves their own victim of sin.
The Commandments are a forewarning to people that certain actions bind people - up into themselves; and away from God's will for them.
Is sin evil and who created evil and is the cause of all evil?
Regards
DL
You know the answer to this. Behaviors are both learned and transferable.
Sin is the lessening of what God has intended for us and it is a loosening from connectivity to the Trinity.
My inability to control my base appetites create behaviors and actions in me which can and do transfer out to reach and teach those people who surround me.
Sin can be likened to one drop of contaminate into an otherwise pristine body of fresh water.
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| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 05/10/2012 : 19:49:22
quote:
Originally posted by Greatest I am 2
Faith
Only a self-inflated ego could believe that they are powerful enough to hurt God.
Are you that powerful?
Regards
DL
God is LOVE. No power is necessary. All it takes is for one of us to turn from Him and He is wounded. Just because it won't kill Him does not mean that it does not hurt Him. |
| Greatest I am 2 |
Posted - 05/10/2012 : 15:34:48
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
God is also just giam. Prudence and temperance along with love and mercy.
If so, then he would love the victim as well and not usurp her right and indeed compulsion from Jesus himself for her to forgive.
Regards
DL |
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