| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| God4me |
Posted - 05/02/2012 : 10:18:40
What do catholics believe the place called "Hell" in Lk 16: 23--24 is??
I've heard some catholics say it is hell, and others say it is purgatory...SO MUCH FOR THE ONE CHURCH & ONE FAITH.
So, catholics on this forum, Where do you believe it is???. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| baby3 |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 17:10:08
OMG,How can any belief even say they believe in the Holy Trinity without believing in the Catholic church? You would not know what the Holy Trinity was if it wasn't for the church none of the Protestant religions would know crap! Wake up accuser of the brethren, and smell the ashes,before your butt is a sling!
Here scarecrow want to play with fire???
Act of Contrition
O my God, I am heartily sorry for
having offended you, and I detest
all my sins, because of Your just
punishments, but most of all because
they offend You, my God, who are
all-good and deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve, with the help of
Your grace, to sin no more and to
avoid the near occasion of sin.
You got one shot in this life better make it your best shot!Jesus said 70x70,your running out of ammo,go hide your face for the angel of the Lord will recompense!! B3 |
| keeper49 |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 15:56:30
quote:
There you go again, TELLING LIES, YOU NAUGHTY WICKED EVIL HELL BOUND MAN.
If you believe that Jesus compleated salvation, Why do you have to do penance, indugencies, works of satisfaction and have to go through purgatoty??.
I believe that Christ finished the work of our Redemption. We are redeemed. The fact remains that we must cooperate with that redemption in order to be saved. If we do not cooperate we damn ourselves. It's about the grace Christ won for us on the cross. We are saved by GRACE.
If we are saved by grace, our actions must be a result of that grace, we were made to do the work God has ordained for us. I have no idea what you mean concerning "works of satisfication" and the subject of indulgences is definitely another thread which you would not be able to comprehend;because you have a very limited understanding of the authority Jesus gave His apostles.
quote:
catholics teach that we they are saved by what Jesus did AND their works, You add your own works..SO STOP TELLING LIES.
Here you go lying again..you hypocrite. Catholics do not teach this.I suggest you read the documents from the council of Trent again and try to understand them instead of twisting them as you do Holy Writ. Works are nothing more than the result of the grace of God within us. The Holy Trinity resides within those who are "baptised" and who follow Christ's commandments;"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,and with all thy mind. This is the first and greatcommandment." (Matthew 22:37-38 KJV)"And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:39-40 KJV)
quote:
If Jesus did it all, What do we have to do?? MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
First you say Jesus compleated salvation, then you say you have to somthing.
Because we share the gospel to others according to what we do more so than what we say. Check out the Pharisees you hypocrite.
quote:
The Bible says we are saven by grace through faith, NOT BY WORKS, Lest any man should boast.
Yet the catholics say, NO..NO..The Bible is wrong and the catholic church [Who teach works for salvation]is right.
The Catholic Church does not say this you liar. You repeat this lie over and over purposely which shows that you are not a follower of Christ. You are more like the Pharisees who perverted God's Word to make themselves BIG among men.
quote:
Then you ask why I malign the catholic church...WAKE UP.
If you can't see the difference between the Bible and the catholic teachings, You really have been blinded by the devil.
You are the one blinded by the devil. You believe without question a belief tradition that goes back a mere century. And then you add your own infantile rationalizations to make up for the faults inherent in that theology. You really are a wretch. I know now why the Catholic Church defines "invincible ignorance". I suggest you look it up.  |
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 13:08:54
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
There you go AGAIN..TELLING LIES.
It's a good job your already going to hell.
quote:
Same worn-out juvenile reply - just a different time and day, blah, blah, blah.
[1]Jesus gave the keys to all His followers, Not just Peter.
He gave them to the Church,
"I will build My Church, And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, And I will give you [The Church] The keys".
Please keep it in it's right context.
quote:
Wow, and you say we "twist" Scripture.
Why would Jesus give the keys to a man who is a stone that is easily moved or shaken??..WAKE UP.
quote:
For the same reason God the Father appointed Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, and David to offices of authority.
Is your belief in God so small that you can't believe that God can work through one individual and change the world?
[2]Jesus never gave His Apostles the authority to remit sins, He gave them the declaration authority to tell the repentant person that their sins are remmited.
Se Lk 24: 47,
"Repentance and remmision should be preached".
When a person repents, Their sins are remited, And the Apstles, Or any Christian can tell the repented person that their sins are remited.
That all Jesus meant when He said, "Who's sins you remit".
quote:
Your denomination (and all other denominations) have developed man-made doctrine concerning the authority to forgive mortal sin and they have all come up with the wrong answer.
[3]There is no such office as a priest in the New Testament Church, Other then the fact that every Christian is a priest unto God.
GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.
quote:
There's no priest in Pentecostalism because Luther revisioned Sacred Scripture to invent himself new doctrine. Prior to Luther's death, there were already 40 different denominations (all with their own version and revisioning of Sacred Scripture).
|
| philial |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 12:12:33
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by philial
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
And where the Church has not defined a Dogma or imposed a rule of faith, Cathoics are free to consider various possibilities in Scripture. The Bible is deep and rich. There is no reason to assume a lack of unity if not every single verse is nailed down.
It does not affect our faith if the rich man was in Hell or Purgatory. But, I consider that if the poor man was in the Bosom of Abraham, and Jesus had not yet opened Heaven, then the rich man must be in Hell.
Purgatory is not a permanent place, so the chasm is not uncrossable. But given that Purgatory would be the "Prison" was that Jesus visited after He died, to release those held there, it is also possible that the Rich man ended up there. I am not 100% certain as to the full details of Hades before Christ's resurrection. Many may have paid their own debt to sin by being put to death themselves. Animals were a substitution for their own life, for those that were not put to death - depending on the type and severity of the sin. Whether one's own life was sufficient back then I don't know.
The Bible clearly states that Jesus went to hell, Acts 2: 27, & v31.
That is the "Prison" Jesus proclaimed the victory over the devil, In 1 Pet 3: 19. He wasn't offering salvation as there is no crossing after death.
Those in Noah's day weren't righteous people, So they went to hell, And there is no getting out of hell untill they are cast into the lake of fire.
This seems all very egotistical for Jesus, which is in stark contrast to the humbleness of His life while a man! And I'm amazed that the holiness of Jesus had no effect whatsoever on the underworld.
Also, why would Jesus breath on His apostles, giving them the Holy Spirit, and declare "what sins you retain, are retained in Heaven, what sins you loose, are loosed in Heaven" if it is He & He alone who had the authority of forgiveness?
Jesus never gave His Apostles the authority to remit sins, He gave them the declaration authority to tell the repentant person that their sins are remmited.
Se Lk 24: 47,
"Repentance and remmision should be preached".
When a person repents, Their sins are remited, And the Apstles, Or any Christian can tell the repented person that their sins are remited.
That all Jesus meant when He said, "Who's sins you remit".
Oh, you naughty little pork pie merchant! If Jesus didnt give authority to forgive / retain sin, why did He state, in verse 21, that "as the father has sent me, so I am sending you." In other words, Jesus was commisioned by the Father to forgive sin, and then passed on that commision to His apostles. I notice you chose the term 'remit', which is latin, and means 'to send away'. I'm surprized a greek scholar like wot you is didnt research the greek... But then you'd have to admit (more latin there) the verse has a catholic meaning, not the one your porkies inssist on. Oh, you naughty wee scamp!
Besides, you have failed to explain why Jesus also gave the apostles the authority to retain... |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 11:38:53
What is this "declaration authority"? That is not mentioned in the Bible, so what does it mean?
The Apostles had the authority to refuse forgiveness if they believed the person was not truly repentant, and the authority to grant forgiveness. Now if you think that this just means declaring it - sure.
If an Apostle or his successor declares that your sins are forgiven, you can bank on that. Those sins are forgiven by Jesus Christ because that is what HE promised. That is good enough for me.
And if they "declare" that your sins are not forgiven, then they are NOT forgiven, not here and not by Christ. That is power.
Pagans have the authority to say they forgive someone. Jesus did not need to breath on anyone for that. But Jesus specifically ordained His Apostles to forgiven and retain sins. Whether they are "declaring" it or not, the forgiveness is granted or rejected through the Apostles and their successors.
Of course, the authority comes from Christ and it is through Christ that all this is possible.
I would not go to a Protestant minister for this. Sure, he could "declare" my sins forgiven, but he cannot speak for Christ. The Apostles ARE speaking for Christ. And so are their successors. |
| God4me |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 10:58:28
quote:
Originally posted by philial
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
And where the Church has not defined a Dogma or imposed a rule of faith, Cathoics are free to consider various possibilities in Scripture. The Bible is deep and rich. There is no reason to assume a lack of unity if not every single verse is nailed down.
It does not affect our faith if the rich man was in Hell or Purgatory. But, I consider that if the poor man was in the Bosom of Abraham, and Jesus had not yet opened Heaven, then the rich man must be in Hell.
Purgatory is not a permanent place, so the chasm is not uncrossable. But given that Purgatory would be the "Prison" was that Jesus visited after He died, to release those held there, it is also possible that the Rich man ended up there. I am not 100% certain as to the full details of Hades before Christ's resurrection. Many may have paid their own debt to sin by being put to death themselves. Animals were a substitution for their own life, for those that were not put to death - depending on the type and severity of the sin. Whether one's own life was sufficient back then I don't know.
The Bible clearly states that Jesus went to hell, Acts 2: 27, & v31.
That is the "Prison" Jesus proclaimed the victory over the devil, In 1 Pet 3: 19. He wasn't offering salvation as there is no crossing after death.
Those in Noah's day weren't righteous people, So they went to hell, And there is no getting out of hell untill they are cast into the lake of fire.
This seems all very egotistical for Jesus, which is in stark contrast to the humbleness of His life while a man! And I'm amazed that the holiness of Jesus had no effect whatsoever on the underworld.
Also, why would Jesus breath on His apostles, giving them the Holy Spirit, and declare "what sins you retain, are retained in Heaven, what sins you loose, are loosed in Heaven" if it is He & He alone who had the authority of forgiveness?
Jesus never gave His Apostles the authority to remit sins, He gave them the declaration authority to tell the repentant person that their sins are remmited.
Se Lk 24: 47,
"Repentance and remmision should be preached".
When a person repents, Their sins are remited, And the Apstles, Or any Christian can tell the repented person that their sins are remited.
That all Jesus meant when He said, "Who's sins you remit".
|
| God4me |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 10:55:59
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
Only the Son of God can forgive sin.
Penance is a component of the Sacrament of Reconciliation - the training (or moulding) of our human will toward God.
You don't believe Jesus forgives sins, That why you go to the priest, You have more faith in your priest to forgive you,
You dodn't believe Jesus forgives sins, Thats why you have to do penance...GET IT RIGHT.
Catholics know that Jesus delegated His Apostles to establish His Church and that it was to both feed and tend His sheep and lambs. And that He also established with His Church an ancient office of authority under one person's leadership. Jesus gave His Keys to His Kingdom to an Apostle named Peter.
Jesus delegated His authority to forgive or hold sins bound to His Apostles.
Jesus did not give His authority to forgive or hold sins bound - to you.
He delegated that authority to His Church and to His ordained priests.
There you go AGAIN..TELLING LIES.
It's a good job your already going to hell.
[1]Jesus gave the keys to all His followers, Not just Peter.
He gave them to the Church,
"I will build My Church, And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, And I will give you [The Church] The keys".
Please keep it in it's right context.
Why would Jesus give the keys to a man who is a stone that is easily moved or shaken??..WAKE UP.
[2]Jesus never gave His Apostles the authority to remit sins, He gave them the declaration authority to tell the repentant person that their sins are remmited.
Se Lk 24: 47,
"Repentance and remmision should be preached".
When a person repents, Their sins are remited, And the Apstles, Or any Christian can tell the repented person that their sins are remited.
That all Jesus meant when He said, "Who's sins you remit".
[3]There is no such office as a priest in the New Testament Church, Other then the fact that every Christian is a priest unto God.
GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT. |
| philial |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 10:20:32
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
And where the Church has not defined a Dogma or imposed a rule of faith, Cathoics are free to consider various possibilities in Scripture. The Bible is deep and rich. There is no reason to assume a lack of unity if not every single verse is nailed down.
It does not affect our faith if the rich man was in Hell or Purgatory. But, I consider that if the poor man was in the Bosom of Abraham, and Jesus had not yet opened Heaven, then the rich man must be in Hell.
Purgatory is not a permanent place, so the chasm is not uncrossable. But given that Purgatory would be the "Prison" was that Jesus visited after He died, to release those held there, it is also possible that the Rich man ended up there. I am not 100% certain as to the full details of Hades before Christ's resurrection. Many may have paid their own debt to sin by being put to death themselves. Animals were a substitution for their own life, for those that were not put to death - depending on the type and severity of the sin. Whether one's own life was sufficient back then I don't know.
The Bible clearly states that Jesus went to hell, Acts 2: 27, & v31.
That is the "Prison" Jesus proclaimed the victory over the devil, In 1 Pet 3: 19. He wasn't offering salvation as there is no crossing after death.
Those in Noah's day weren't righteous people, So they went to hell, And there is no getting out of hell untill they are cast into the lake of fire.
This seems all very egotistical for Jesus, which is in stark contrast to the humbleness of His life while a man! And I'm amazed that the holiness of Jesus had no effect whatsoever on the underworld.
Also, why would Jesus breath on His apostles, giving them the Holy Spirit, and declare "what sins you retain, are retained in Heaven, what sins you loose, are loosed in Heaven" if it is He & He alone who had the authority of forgiveness? |
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 09:56:19
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
Only the Son of God can forgive sin.
Penance is a component of the Sacrament of Reconciliation - the training (or moulding) of our human will toward God.
You don't believe Jesus forgives sins, That why you go to the priest, You have more faith in your priest to forgive you,
You dodn't believe Jesus forgives sins, Thats why you have to do penance...GET IT RIGHT.
Catholics know that Jesus delegated His Apostles to establish His Church and that it was to both feed and tend His sheep and lambs. And that He also established with His Church an ancient office of authority under one person's leadership. Jesus gave His Keys to His Kingdom to an Apostle named Peter.
Jesus delegated His authority to forgive or hold sins bound to His Apostles.
Jesus did not give His authority to forgive or hold sins bound - to you.
He delegated that authority to His Church and to His ordained priests.
|
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 09:48:11
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
STOP TELLING LIES, YOU WICKED EVIL HELLBOUND MAN.
Everything you said, Is a load of lies.
You continue to fall back into your ditch all the while ranking your same juvenile responses.
It looks like the truth is getting to you and convicting you.
Pentecostal truth? All denominations lack the fullness of Truth.
|
| God4me |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 09:21:53
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
STOP TELLING LIES, YOU WICKED EVIL HELLBOUND MAN.
Everything you said, Is a load of lies.
You continue to fall back into your ditch all the while ranking your same juvenile responses.
It looks like the truth is getting to you and convicting you. |
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 09:09:12
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
STOP TELLING LIES, YOU WICKED EVIL HELLBOUND MAN.
Everything you said, Is a load of lies.
You continue to fall back into your ditch all the while ranking your same juvenile responses. |
| God4me |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 07:17:34
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
All encompassing examples of penance in Scripture:
quote:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/03/biblical-overview-on-penance-purgatory.html
Biblical examples of penance include Adam and Eve's exclusion from the Garden of Eden, the disobedient Jews in the desert wandering for 40 years, Moses forbidden to enter the Promised Land, David's sufferings due to his murder and adultery, and sickness and death resulting from taking Communion unworthily (1 Cor 11:30-32).
Jesus Christ gave His disciples (by extension, priests) the power not only to "loose" sins (i.e., forgive in God's name), but also to "bind" (i.e., impose penances): Mt 16:19; 18:18; Jn 20:23.
The faithful on earth can render atonement for one another by means of good works performed in a state of grace. The effect is the remission of all or part of temporal punishment for sin. This vicarious atonement among Christians is grounded in the unity of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, and is no different in kind than intercessory prayer for one another - indeed the most effective form. Examples in the Bible include Moses (Ex 32:32), Job (Job 1:5), and in St. Paul's teaching and practice (Col 1:24; 2 Cor 12:15; 2 Tim 4:6).
[1]There are no such office in the Bible's New Testament Church as a priest.
The Bible's New Testament Church is interconnected with the Bible's Old Testament. Do you always pick and choose Sacred Scripture only so that it reinforces your protestant view point?
[2]Jesus never gave His Apostles authority to remit sins
And where do you get Penace out of Jn 20: 23. and Matt 16: 19??.
Your lack of Biblical understanding is astounding. The Apostles instituted Christ's Church. They were delegated the power by Christ (who received that power from His Father) to forgive or to hold bound sin. (Forgiveness of sin is the main reason why Jesus came to Earth and died so that our souls can reside with Him)
Can't you see how you twist the Bible??, If you say no, Then you are either very thick, Or a down right liar.
There is far more important work for the Body of Christ to be done that to argue with you.
[3]You said,
quote:
The faithful on earth can render atonement for one another by means of good works performed in a state of grace. The effect is the remission of all or part of temporal punishment for sin. This vicarious atonement among Christians is grounded in the unity of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, and is no different in kind than intercessory prayer for one another - indeed the most effective form. Examples in the Bible include Moses (Ex 32:32), Job (Job 1:5), and in St. Paul's teaching and practice (Col 1:24; 2 Cor 12:15; 2 Tim 4:6).
[End quote].
Forgeting the scriptures in the Old Testament, As they have nothing to do with the new Testament Church age,
Where is that in the Bible? What Bible college did you attend?The Ten Commandments are in the Old Testament.
Where does, 2 Cor 12: 15. Col 1: 24, And 2 Tim 4: 6. say anything about doing penance for other people, Or for themselve for that matter??.
[quote]
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.
What is an indulgence?
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83
The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence.
Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin.
On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory.
This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin.
These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.
A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains.
While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.
He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."85 (Eph 4:22, 24)
Can't you see how you are twisting the Bible??. YOU WICKED EVIL HELLBOUND MAN.
You need to repent of your negative attitude, hatred, bigotry, pride, lack of love, and your spiritual sloth. I'll pray for you toward that end.
STOP TELLING LIES, YOU WICKED EVIL HELLBOUND MAN.
Everything you said, Is a load of lies. |
| God4me |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 07:13:22
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
Only the Son of God can forgive sin.
Penance is a component of the Sacrament of Reconciliation - the training (or moulding) of our human will toward God.
You don't believe Jesus forgives sins, That why you go to the priest, You have more faith in your priest to forgive you,
You dodn't believe Jesus forgives sins, Thats why you have to do penance...GET IT RIGHT.
Your erroneous statements are beyond idoicy. And you again display how little you understand or wish to comprehend Sacred Scripture from your protestant theology.
In the Upper Room, Jesus gave His Apostles (who hold an office of ordination) the authority to "forgive or to hold sins bound". That is a counseling authority in His Church.
Your denomination is a separation from His Church which man created in 1,500s.
Wake up and get it right. And, stop telling lies.
There you go AGAIN..TELING LIES.
[1]You don't believe Jesus forgives sins, If you did, You,
wouldn't go to the priest.
You wouldn't do penance.
You wouldn't believe the need for purgatory.
[2]Jesus never gave His Apostles the authority to remit sins.
[A] Only God can forgive and remit sins.
[B]You only have one scripture that indicates the Apostles can remit sins, And you need at least two scriptures to build a doctrine.
[C]It was an authority of declaration, Not the authority of remission, In Jn 20: 23.
See Lk 24: 47. Repentance and rimission of sins should be preached.
The Apostles, [Just like every Christian] Has the authority to say to the repentant person, Their sins are forgiven,.
And thats all Jesus meant in Jn 20: 23.
[3]What happened in the 1500s, Was God calling the reformers out of the eroneous catholic church.
They became protestants.
But Christians were always here, And have been since the Church started on the day of pentecost.
GET IT RIGHT MAN. |
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 05/18/2012 : 06:48:37
quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by bwellmysoul
All encompassing examples of penance in Scripture:
quote:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/03/biblical-overview-on-penance-purgatory.html
Biblical examples of penance include Adam and Eve's exclusion from the Garden of Eden, the disobedient Jews in the desert wandering for 40 years, Moses forbidden to enter the Promised Land, David's sufferings due to his murder and adultery, and sickness and death resulting from taking Communion unworthily (1 Cor 11:30-32).
Jesus Christ gave His disciples (by extension, priests) the power not only to "loose" sins (i.e., forgive in God's name), but also to "bind" (i.e., impose penances): Mt 16:19; 18:18; Jn 20:23.
The faithful on earth can render atonement for one another by means of good works performed in a state of grace. The effect is the remission of all or part of temporal punishment for sin. This vicarious atonement among Christians is grounded in the unity of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, and is no different in kind than intercessory prayer for one another - indeed the most effective form. Examples in the Bible include Moses (Ex 32:32), Job (Job 1:5), and in St. Paul's teaching and practice (Col 1:24; 2 Cor 12:15; 2 Tim 4:6).
[1]There are no such office in the Bible's New Testament Church as a priest.
The Bible's New Testament Church is interconnected with the Bible's Old Testament. Do you always pick and choose Sacred Scripture only so that it reinforces your protestant view point?
[2]Jesus never gave His Apostles authority to remit sins
And where do you get Penace out of Jn 20: 23. and Matt 16: 19??.
Your lack of Biblical understanding is astounding. The Apostles instituted Christ's Church. They were delegated the power by Christ (who received that power from His Father) to forgive or to hold bound sin. (Forgiveness of sin is the main reason why Jesus came to Earth and died so that our souls can reside with Him)
Can't you see how you twist the Bible??, If you say no, Then you are either very thick, Or a down right liar.
There is far more important work for the Body of Christ to be done that to argue with you.
[3]You said,
quote:
The faithful on earth can render atonement for one another by means of good works performed in a state of grace. The effect is the remission of all or part of temporal punishment for sin. This vicarious atonement among Christians is grounded in the unity of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, and is no different in kind than intercessory prayer for one another - indeed the most effective form. Examples in the Bible include Moses (Ex 32:32), Job (Job 1:5), and in St. Paul's teaching and practice (Col 1:24; 2 Cor 12:15; 2 Tim 4:6).
[End quote].
Forgeting the scriptures in the Old Testament, As they have nothing to do with the new Testament Church age,
Where is that in the Bible? What Bible college did you attend?The Ten Commandments are in the Old Testament.
Where does, 2 Cor 12: 15. Col 1: 24, And 2 Tim 4: 6. say anything about doing penance for other people, Or for themselve for that matter??.
[quote]
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.
What is an indulgence?
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83
The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence.
Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin.
On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory.
This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin.
These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.
A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains.
While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.
He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."85 (Eph 4:22, 24)
Can't you see how you are twisting the Bible??. YOU WICKED EVIL HELLBOUND MAN.
You need to repent of your negative attitude, hatred, bigotry, pride, lack of love, and your spiritual sloth. I'll pray for you toward that end.
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