| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| evangelist |
Posted - 07/20/2012 : 08:54:28
I would like to start this thread specially on this topic about the only sin which send a person to hell is renouncing Jesus as thier Lord or rejection of Jesus because of unbelief and that is why sins in general is not the issue!
Sinner and unbeliever are already condemned to hell:
Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
1Jo:2:16: For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo:2:17: And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
1Jo:2:18: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo:2:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jo:2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo:2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
let me start with this for now!
I will quote scripture from Hebrews which show a person who renounce Jesus can not come back to the Lord and that sin is unpardonable and also against the Holy Spirit!
Heb:6:4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb:6:5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb:6:6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb:6:7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb:6:8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Also:
Heb:10:26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
1Jo:5:16: If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.1Jo:5:17: All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Also notice all unrighteousness is sin , meaning John is showing there is no category of big or little sins or mortal or no mortal sin they all are the same bad sins before God and that is a true fact which lines up perfectly with:
Jas:2:10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
and
Jas:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
one love |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 02/08/2013 : 13:04:55
Of course we are living after that time. The Debt is still paid.
But we still need to seek forgiveness for our sins. And it isn't hard. So long as we are sincere, God will always forgive us.
The Debt to Sin is PAID in full. Done deal.
Forgiveness is not a done deal. And YOU KNOW THAT.
You know how I know?
Because even you admit that when a person first comes to Christ, they must repent of their sins. If what Jesus did 2000 years ago granted automatic forgiveness for all sins, then we would not need to repent at all - Andrew Wommack even said that he believed we NEVER need to repent, not even when we first come to Christ.
But, the Bible shows clearly, even after Jesus died and rose, that sins were not automatically forgiven. People still needed to repent, even Born Again Christians STILL had to repent. I showed you the verses from Paul.
We can ask for whatever we want from God - as often as we seek forgiveness from Him, He will forgive us. But we still need to ask. And HE encourages us to do so.
Debt is paid. All of it. Once for all. All we need to do is to Repent of our sins. But we can't just repent once, we have to repent any time we have a serious sin. |
| evangelist |
Posted - 02/08/2013 : 01:01:57
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist, Jesus paid the Debt due to sin that was impossible for us. Once and for all nearly 2000 years ago. That debt was so great, that even those under the Old Covenant who were forgiven could still not enter Heaven.
Got that? Their sins were ALREADY forgiven them, but they could not enter Heaven. Why? Because the DEBT was to high.
Jesus paid the Debt to sin. But the forgiveness is separate. Jesus was forgiving sins all over the place BEFORE He died. Lots of sins were forgiven even before Christ was born. It was not forgiveness that was hard to get, it was the debt owed from the sins that could not be paid because of who was wronged. We are not equal to God. Only Jesus, the Son of God, could pay the impossible debt.
The Debt is PAID. But we still need to seek forgiveness for our sins when we commit sins. We just don't have to slaughter any goats or bulls or Messiahs any more. Even before, the goats and bulls could not pay the debt. That is why they had to continually offer them.
You answered well by saying 2000 years ago bingo!
the second question to that so you can get truth and to why I asked you this question is because if Jesus did all this for us once 2000 years ago, are we living after that date to be in the future of that once for ALL time of Jesus sacrafice and blood shed?
let me also make the question more silly and clear are we leaving in the present time as christ or the future time so the price Jesus paid is valid on the time you agree with or answer with??
one love |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 23:49:21
Evangelist, Jesus paid the Debt due to sin that was impossible for us. Once and for all nearly 2000 years ago. That debt was so great, that even those under the Old Covenant who were forgiven could still not enter Heaven.
Got that? Their sins were ALREADY forgiven them, but they could not enter Heaven. Why? Because the DEBT was to high.
Jesus paid the Debt to sin. But the forgiveness is separate. Jesus was forgiving sins all over the place BEFORE He died. Lots of sins were forgiven even before Christ was born. It was not forgiveness that was hard to get, it was the debt owed from the sins that could not be paid because of who was wronged. We are not equal to God. Only Jesus, the Son of God, could pay the impossible debt.
The Debt is PAID. But we still need to seek forgiveness for our sins when we commit sins. We just don't have to slaughter any goats or bulls or Messiahs any more. Even before, the goats and bulls could not pay the debt. That is why they had to continually offer them. |
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 08:52:30
Once Saved Always Saved?
Only one sin; the sin of rejecting Christ dooms a soul?
quote:
Ananias and Sapphira
5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property.
2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”
5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.
6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”
“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”
9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”
10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.
|
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 08:50:21
quote:
To Sardis.*
1“To the angel of the church in Sardis,* write this:
“The one who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars says this:
“I know your works, that you have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
2Be watchful and strengthen what is left, which is going to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.
3Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent.
If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you.a
4However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy.b
5“The victor will thus be dressed in white,* and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels.c
Once Saved Always Saved?
|
| evangelist |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 07:58:11
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Unbelief and not having a Saviour send a person to hell!
Our other sins been paid for by Jesus!
one love
And I gave you scriptural evidence that while all sins have been paid for by Jesus, not all sins are forgiven.
Quote Evangelist:
Then what is the purpose of the payment of ALL sins Jesus did?
Not forgiveness. Sins were forgiven in the OT. But what they could not pay was the debt due to sin. That was impossible. Jesus paid the debt so that all those who had been forgiven could go to Heaven. You may recall that Jesus opened the Gates of Heaven when He died - before that, none could go to Heaven even through some were RIGHTEOUS, and many already had all their sins forgiven.
I showed you from the scriptures that sins committed by Born Again Christians had to be repented of to be forgiven. These were not the sins of unbelief or not having Jesus as a Saviour. These were Born Again Christians who believed in Jesus very much, but loved sin just a little bit more.
Quote evangelist:
But what about what Jesus paid in full for the sins of the whole world even the sins of unbelievers who never repented and their sins were paid for, except for the one sin unto death of renoucing Jesus, and also all those who don't accept Jesus is in the same category as such only they can get born again once?
As I said, the DEBT to sin was paid in full. For everyone. But this does not equal forgiveness of sin. For that we need to repent of our sins. Otherwise, we would not need to repent when we were baptized either right? And yet the Bible clearly shows that we do.
The Good News was that they could easily be saved just by REPENTING of their new sins. Paul showed this. They didn't have to crucify Christ again as you claim. All they had to do was REPENT. Easy.
Quote Evangelist:
The accepting bring repentance, just like love cancel a mulitude of sins!
Accepting does bring repentance. Godly sorrow brings repentance. And when they do, WE DO. We still have to do the repenting even though Grace brings us to this point.
But for those who would not repent, Paul said to put them OUT of the community and to not associate with these sinners unless they repented.
Every sinner yes must repent to be saved ,I am not saving a sinner does not have to repent to be saved and be justified and redeemed, they do have to activate that payment Christ did 2000 years ago to be forgiven (once and for ALL), that is why I started the new thread about repenting VS confession.
No. We don't activate forgiveness - once and for all. That just does not occur. We repent to be forgiven. Christ's death on the Cross paid the DEBT to sin, so that those who ALREADY had their sins forgiven could go to Heaven. Before that time, those who died did not go to Heaven, even though they had been forgiven, and some were even righteous as stated in the scriptures. And from then on, those who were forgiven of their sins could hope to go to Heaven when they died.
But while the debt for sin is paid in full, Once for All. Forgiveness is given on a case by case basis to those who seek it.
When did that (once and for All) take place , how many year ago was that??
one love |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 07:39:22
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Unbelief and not having a Saviour send a person to hell!
Our other sins been paid for by Jesus!
one love
And I gave you scriptural evidence that while all sins have been paid for by Jesus, not all sins are forgiven.
Quote Evangelist:
Then what is the purpose of the payment of ALL sins Jesus did?
Not forgiveness. Sins were forgiven in the OT. But what they could not pay was the debt due to sin. That was impossible. Jesus paid the debt so that all those who had been forgiven could go to Heaven. You may recall that Jesus opened the Gates of Heaven when He died - before that, none could go to Heaven even through some were RIGHTEOUS, and many already had all their sins forgiven.
I showed you from the scriptures that sins committed by Born Again Christians had to be repented of to be forgiven. These were not the sins of unbelief or not having Jesus as a Saviour. These were Born Again Christians who believed in Jesus very much, but loved sin just a little bit more.
Quote evangelist:
But what about what Jesus paid in full for the sins of the whole world even the sins of unbelievers who never repented and their sins were paid for, except for the one sin unto death of renoucing Jesus, and also all those who don't accept Jesus is in the same category as such only they can get born again once?
As I said, the DEBT to sin was paid in full. For everyone. But this does not equal forgiveness of sin. For that we need to repent of our sins. Otherwise, we would not need to repent when we were baptized either right? And yet the Bible clearly shows that we do.
The Good News was that they could easily be saved just by REPENTING of their new sins. Paul showed this. They didn't have to crucify Christ again as you claim. All they had to do was REPENT. Easy.
Quote Evangelist:
The accepting bring repentance, just like love cancel a mulitude of sins!
Accepting does bring repentance. Godly sorrow brings repentance. And when they do, WE DO. We still have to do the repenting even though Grace brings us to this point.
But for those who would not repent, Paul said to put them OUT of the community and to not associate with these sinners unless they repented.
Every sinner yes must repent to be saved ,I am not saving a sinner does not have to repent to be saved and be justified and redeemed, they do have to activate that payment Christ did 2000 years ago to be forgiven (once and for ALL), that is why I started the new thread about repenting VS confession.
No. We don't activate forgiveness - once and for all. That just does not occur. We repent to be forgiven. Christ's death on the Cross paid the DEBT to sin, so that those who ALREADY had their sins forgiven could go to Heaven. Before that time, those who died did not go to Heaven, even though they had been forgiven, and some were even righteous as stated in the scriptures. And from then on, those who were forgiven of their sins could hope to go to Heaven when they died.
But while the debt for sin is paid in full, Once for All. Forgiveness is given on a case by case basis to those who seek it. |
| evangelist |
Posted - 02/07/2013 : 03:31:37
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Unbelief and not having a Saviour send a person to hell!
Our other sins been paid for by Jesus!
one love
And I gave you scriptural evidence that while all sins have been paid for by Jesus, not all sins are forgiven.
Quote Evangelist:
Then what is the purpose of the payment of ALL sins Jesus did?
I showed you from the scriptures that sins committed by Born Again Christians had to be repented of to be forgiven. These were not the sins of unbelief or not having Jesus as a Saviour. These were Born Again Christians who believed in Jesus very much, but loved sin just a little bit more.
Quote evangelist:
But what about what Jesus paid in full for the sins of the whole world even the sins of unbelievers who never repented and their sins were paid for, except for the one sin unto death of renoucing Jesus, and also all those who don't accept Jesus is in the same category as such only they can get born again once?
The Good News was that they could easily be saved just by REPENTING of their new sins. Paul showed this. They didn't have to crucify Christ again as you claim. All they had to do was REPENT. Easy.
Quote Evangelist:
The accepting bring repentance, just like love cancel a mulitude of sins!
But for those who would not repent, Paul said to put them OUT of the community and to not associate with these sinners unless they repented.
Every sinner yes must repent to be saved ,I am not saving a sinner does not have to repent to be saved and be justified and redeemed, they do have to activate that payment Christ did 2000 years ago to be forgiven (once and for ALL), that is why I started the new thread about repenting VS confession. |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 22:20:52
quote:
Unbelief and not having a Saviour send a person to hell!
Our other sins been paid for by Jesus!
one love
And I gave you scriptural evidence that while all sins have been paid for by Jesus, not all sins are forgiven.
I showed you from the scriptures that sins committed by Born Again Christians had to be repented of to be forgiven. These were not the sins of unbelief or not having Jesus as a Saviour. These were Born Again Christians who believed in Jesus very much, but loved sin just a little bit more.
The Good News was that they could easily be saved just by REPENTING of their new sins. Paul showed this. They didn't have to crucify Christ again as you claim. All they had to do was REPENT. Easy.
But for those who would not repent, Paul said to put them OUT of the community and to not associate with these sinners unless they repented. |
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 15:53:31
Are you expanding your one sin?
"Unbelief" and "not having a Savior" are not rejections of Christ. |
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 14:13:29
Not true. Not knowing Jesus will not automatically send a person to hell.
There are billions of people on Earth who don't practice Christianity. |
| evangelist |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 13:35:04
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist. You are preaching from the gospel of Wommack, not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Jesus paid the debt to sin. Jesus came to save the sinners. But not all are saved, not all will be saved. This is because sin is STILL an issue.
All you have to do is read the New Testament to see that SIN is the reason that many won't be saved.
Read the Epistles - Paul, James, Jude, John and Peter all condemned sin - and not merely the sin of unbelief, that too was a problem, but also the sins of the flesh. Most often the sins of the flesh.
Not one of them said that sin was no longer and issue. Not one of them said that all our sins were automatically forgiven.
Sometimes you take generic statements and make them into Dogmatic statements without any real support.
For example, Paul says that we are saved by Grace though Faith and not of ourselves - AMEN. Big fat AMEN. But Paul is not making a statement to his readers that everyone one of them is SAVED. NO. He is not saying who is saved or not saved. He is saying HOW we are saved - for those who are actually saved.
Many times there is mention of being saved, but these are teaching moments, not statements that we are saved done deal - Paul never says that.
In fact, while Paul was alive, he never even claimed to have been saved himself. He acknowledged for all that even he could lose his salvation.
1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Note what Paul is saying. He is talking about keeping his own body under control to keep from losing his own salvation. Not his mind or his spirit. Why would it matter if his body wasn't kept under control if the only sin that could damn him was renouncing Jesus?
If renouncing Jesus was something that we could only do with our mind or spirit, then it would not matter what our body did - our body cannot reject Jesus from an intellectual standpoint.
But we can reject Jesus by our actions. When we choose to disobey Him, that too is a rejection. And that is what we do when we make a member of Christ's Body here on earth engage in actions that we know are sinful. Jesus cannot sin. So if we MAKE Him sin by engaging in sin while a member of HIS Body - we get cut off. Jesus can't sin. So no part of Him can sin without being ejected from the Body.
Paul kept his body under control and strove to not let his flesh get the better of him. This was important enough to tell people in his letter to the Corinthians.
This wasn't to say that Paul was never tempted. We know from his own writings that he was. We all are. But the Bible also says that God knows how to deliver us from Temptation. Not IGNORE what we do when we give in to temptation, but actually deliver us OUT of Temptation. THAT is the power of Grace.
Unbelief and not having a Saviour send a person to hell!
Our other sins been paid for by Jesus!
one love |
| bwellmysoul |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 13:27:51
quote:
It is Jesus alone who set a person free not any church and glad you know not any church can save a person not even a RCC!
Are you unaware that Christ established one Church?
It's in your Bible.
He did this prior to His death.
"...upon this rock I will build My Church." |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 13:03:38
Evangelist. You are preaching from the gospel of Wommack, not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Jesus paid the debt to sin. Jesus came to save the sinners. But not all are saved, not all will be saved. This is because sin is STILL an issue.
All you have to do is read the New Testament to see that SIN is the reason that many won't be saved.
Read the Epistles - Paul, James, Jude, John and Peter all condemned sin - and not merely the sin of unbelief, that too was a problem, but also the sins of the flesh. Most often the sins of the flesh.
Not one of them said that sin was no longer and issue. Not one of them said that all our sins were automatically forgiven.
Sometimes you take generic statements and make them into Dogmatic statements without any real support.
For example, Paul says that we are saved by Grace though Faith and not of ourselves - AMEN. Big fat AMEN. But Paul is not making a statement to his readers that everyone one of them is SAVED. NO. He is not saying who is saved or not saved. He is saying HOW we are saved - for those who are actually saved.
Many times there is mention of being saved, but these are teaching moments, not statements that we are saved done deal - Paul never says that.
In fact, while Paul was alive, he never even claimed to have been saved himself. He acknowledged for all that even he could lose his salvation.
1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Note what Paul is saying. He is talking about keeping his own body under control to keep from losing his own salvation. Not his mind or his spirit. Why would it matter if his body wasn't kept under control if the only sin that could damn him was renouncing Jesus?
If renouncing Jesus was something that we could only do with our mind or spirit, then it would not matter what our body did - our body cannot reject Jesus from an intellectual standpoint.
But we can reject Jesus by our actions. When we choose to disobey Him, that too is a rejection. And that is what we do when we make a member of Christ's Body here on earth engage in actions that we know are sinful. Jesus cannot sin. So if we MAKE Him sin by engaging in sin while a member of HIS Body - we get cut off. Jesus can't sin. So no part of Him can sin without being ejected from the Body.
Paul kept his body under control and strove to not let his flesh get the better of him. This was important enough to tell people in his letter to the Corinthians.
This wasn't to say that Paul was never tempted. We know from his own writings that he was. We all are. But the Bible also says that God knows how to deliver us from Temptation. Not IGNORE what we do when we give in to temptation, but actually deliver us OUT of Temptation. THAT is the power of Grace. |
| evangelist |
Posted - 02/06/2013 : 07:41:45
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
You don't need to return to a church to be forgiven and not be damned. If you are truly and perfectly sorry for your sin against God out of pure love for God, you will be forgiven.
We need the Church because Jesus knew that most of us are just not that pure. The Apostles were given the authority to forgive or retain sins even if the contrition was not perfect - i.e. if a person repents solely because he or she doesn't want to go to Hell. That is NOT perfect contrition, but God can work with that through the Sacraments.
And even if we have perfect contrition, obedience to Christ's Church and showing a good example for others is still a worthy exercise.
And, herein lies another problem. Some will say that they are sorry out of love for God, but in reality they just don't want to embarrass themselves infront of the priest or anyone else - one can delude oneself into THINKING that they have something they don't.
In the early days of the Church, everyone confessed their sins out loud in front of everyone in the assembly - remember when James said to confess our faults to one another - he really meant that. Of course only the Presbyter could forgive the sins in the Person of Christ.
If you are PERFECT in mind, body and spirit, you don't need Christ's Church. For that matter, you don't even need Christ. Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but the sinners. (He still saved everyone, but He did actually mention this in the scriptures - He came to save the wretched, the poor, the misunderstood - sinners.)
I am glad you mention this in your post so you can see from your own mouth sins can't be an issue because Jesus saved and paid the price for all mankind so they can come boldly to the throne of God and come behind the viel where the Holies of Holy was even with some sins on them where in the old testament priest would have died, but because of what Jesus did and finished on the cross for us we are justified and cleaned through Jesus alone, we just can only activate this truth by our indivisual faith with belief, but not everyone activate their faith to be (made) who Jesus paid for them to be!
It is Jesus alone who set a person free not any church and glad you know not any church can save a person not even a RCC!Amen
When we stand before God , the question won't be asked what church you went too or was a member of , but what have you recieved of His Son!
one love |
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