| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 07:25:20
Anyone up for discussing it with me? Has to be someone patient... you know how slow I can be! |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 11:31:10
Hi Gadfly 
Thank you so much... it does help to see pictures. I know we're not talking theology... if I'd known the thread would go this direction, I'd have started it elsewhere! If it would be best to continue in PM, that is fine with me... I'll let you choose.
quote:
A longer sword has a longer reach, but a shorter sword can get within the swing of a longer sword--so it's all a matter of how they are used.
From what I'm reading, it's not as much about making contact as the strategy used to cross the distance. Am I reading right? Or would this differ depending on what style is used?
quote:
There's no specific advantage to either. In Musashi's day, there were schools of thought that a warrior with a short sword could dance around "unencumbered" when fighting long-sword armed opponents, or that a warrior with a long sword could kill from a distance. Musashi pointed out the fallacies with both paradigms.
Okay, I'll just mull this over for now, and ask about it later.
Why did you choose Musashi's Way over Western styles?
Thanks again, and God bless,
Diana |
| Gadfly |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 11:04:36
quote:
Originally posted by Diana Holberg
Was the "companion" sword concealed?
No. Both swords would be worn tucked through a sash worn around the outside of the hakama.
quote:
Kinda scary thinking about trying to bathe with a sword... Do you know if he tried to keep it on his person, or just nearby??
On his person, I believe, though perhaps not in the water. But Not as scary as you'd think. It'd probably still be in its saya (scabbard).
quote:
I assume there is strategic purpose in having two lengths as well... Can you share something about that with me?
Not really, beyond the aforementioned shorter-is-better-when-enclosed. A longer sword has a longer reach, but a shorter sword can get within the swing of a longer sword--so it's all a matter of how they are used. There's no specific advantage to either. In Musashi's day, there were schools of thought that a warrior with a short sword could dance around "unencumbered" when fighting long-sword armed opponents, or that a warrior with a long sword could kill from a distance. Musashi pointed out the fallacies with both paradigms.
The big thing about having both a long sword and a short sword was that only the samurai class were permitted to carry two swords. It was a mark of status, of social rank. A peasant may carry one, but to carry two would be considered an impersonation.
quote:
Okay... how does a gauche compare to a wakisashi?
Interesting. How did they compare in weight?
Let me see if I can find you some pictures...
The upper one is a katana. The lower one is a wakisashi (a little smaller than the standard, but as I said, they flux.)
A gauche. Rapier not pictured. As you can see, it's much smaller--more a dagger than anything else.
Here's some stats for you, taken from a typical example of each.
Katana: Total length, 45"; Weight, 3 lbs. "Companion" sword: Total length, 30"; Weight: 1 lb 7 oz. Gauche: Total length, 17"; Weight, 1 lb 2 oz.
quote:
Gadfly, I have been reading up a little bit about fencing. I have to confess that I have never before taken an interest in combat or martial arts of any kind... I tend to use words rather than weapons, and I'm not a great strategist.
But I am finding that there is a great deal to learn about the use of words from the use of weapons. Have you found it so?
Yes, I do. A rebuttal is similar to a riposte, a defense is analagous to a parry, a well-thought-out statement to a skillful thrust, and an ad hominem attack to kicking the dust into one's opponent's eyes.
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| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 01/31/2005 : 08:45:12
Okay, maybe not.
Gadfly, I have been reading up a little bit about fencing. I have to confess that I have never before taken an interest in combat or martial arts of any kind... I tend to use words rather than weapons, and I'm not a great strategist.
But I am finding that there is a great deal to learn about the use of words from the use of weapons. Have you found it so?
I'm still very interested in the strategy related to using a long and short sword, from your perspective.
God bless,
Diana |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 19:45:45
A blog entry on this subject... and probably my last post for the thread as well!  |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 01/29/2005 : 13:03:16
Ever since our thread on Evangelism ended, I've been pondering Luke 22:38. Commentaries seem unclear on the meaning of this much discussed verse:
Luke 22:38
38 They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."
As I said before, there are several theories... here is one of them:
Evangelicals and Orthodox: Crossing Paths and Crossing Swords
Of particular interest to me, of course, is the section on Evangelism. Anyone have further thoughts?
God bless,
Diana |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 15:39:11
quote:
Originally posted by Gadfly
I don't know. Perhaps it was considered rude to carry one's long sword indoors, or perhaps not. I think it was just in contrast to the shorter sword, the "companion" sword, which never left the samurai's side, at least in Musashi's case. It's recorded that he even took his companion sword into the bath with him.
Yes, perhaps rude because it would be so visible and distracting. Like carrying a weapon unconcealed today.
Was the "companion" sword concealed?
Kinda scary thinking about trying to bathe with a sword... Do you know if he tried to keep it on his person, or just nearby??
quote:
Those are the lengths of a katana/wakisashi pair ("daisho") I used for example, though lengths do fluxuate a bit. 2/3 seems about right.
I assume there is strategic purpose in having two lengths as well... Can you share something about that with me?
quote:
To sum up in a nutshell--your standard Japanese sword is primarily a slashing weapon. It can be thrust with, but not well. A rapier is primarily a thrusting weapon, and most were not designed for cutting. The sword styles differed accordingly.
Okay... how does a gauche compare to a wakisashi?
quote:
(Also a rapier was primarily a civilian weapon, where the katana was a weapon for the military elite.)
Interesting. How did they compare in weight?
quote:
Regarding the original purpose of this subject: I did some searching. Two-sword theory is Augustinian or Gelasian, not Aquinas', and refers to Natural Law and Divine Law being one and the same. That is, Natural Law is the same as God's Law, and that individuals are only bound to the laws of men insofar as they do not conflict with Natural Law.
Good topic. Why do you think it was called a "Two-sword theory"?
Thanks, and God bless,
Diana |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 14:25:57
Allen... I want to hear them ALL!!!! |
| alcovey |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 14:15:17
quote:
Regarding the original purpose of this subject: I did some searching. Two-sword theory is Augustinian or Gelasian, not Aquinas', and refers to Natural Law and Divine Law being one and the same. That is, Natural Law is the same as God's Law, and that individuals are only bound to the laws of men insofar as they do not conflict with Natural Law.
That is a great subject.....
quote:
Originally posted by Diana Holberg
Thanks, Gadfly... I've been doing some searching as well, and it seems there are several "two sword" theories, all very interesting to me.
But we have yet to hear which one you were referring to.
One thought I had was the sword that pierced Mary's heart as she interceded for her Son who was pierced with a lance.
But, alas, I will wait in suspense for further clarification.  |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 13:35:26
Thanks, Gadfly... I've been doing some searching as well, and it seems there are several "two sword" theories, all very interesting to me. As for the sword site... I prefer to get your filtered view  |
| Gadfly |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 13:14:40
quote:
The longer one would not be worn? Why not? Couldn't a person wear it and just not use it? I know you said you're no expert, but you've really got me curious...
I don't know. Perhaps it was considered rude to carry one's long sword indoors, or perhaps not. I think it was just in contrast to the shorter sword, the "companion" sword, which never left the samurai's side, at least in Musashi's case. It's recorded that he even took his companion sword into the bath with him.
quote:
In other words, the shorter was 2/3 of the longer? Or are you just guessing?
Those are the lengths of a katana/wakisashi pair ("daisho") I used for example, though lengths do fluxuate a bit. 2/3 seems about right.
quote:
Can you tell me more about how this style differs from the Japanese style?
There's enough information on that subject to fill a book. To sum up in a nutshell--your standard Japanese sword is primarily a slashing weapon. It can be thrust with, but not well. A rapier is primarily a thrusting weapon, and most were not designed for cutting. The sword styles differed accordingly. (Also a rapier was primarily a civilian weapon, where the katana was a weapon for the military elite.)
For more information about such things, I recommend www.swordforum.com .
Regarding the original purpose of this subject: I did some searching. Two-sword theory is Augustinian or Gelasian, not Aquinas', and refers to Natural Law and Divine Law being one and the same. That is, Natural Law is the same as God's Law, and that individuals are only bound to the laws of men insofar as they do not conflict with Natural Law. |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:53:23
Hi Gadfly quote:
Originally posted by Gadfly
Well, as I understood it, the shorter one is the "companion" sword which could be used indoors, and would be worn indoors, while the longer one would only be worn and used outdoors. (Longer swords tend to hit ceilings and walls and such, and are a bother in enclosed fighting.)
The longer one would not be worn? Why not? Couldn't a person wear it and just not use it? I know you said you're no expert, but you've really got me curious...
quote:
Lengths... I'm no expert, but I think the longer one would have about 30" of blade, give or take a few, while the shorter would have around 20".
In other words, the shorter was 2/3 of the longer? Or are you just guessing?
quote:
In other cultures they had different two-sword styles. Rapier fighters in the Middle Ages often had a left-hand parrying dagger called a gauche. That would have been shorter, under two feet in length.
Can you tell me more about how this style differs from the Japanese style?
quote:
Now, out of curiousity, what is the "two sword" theory you were originally referring to? Something theological, I'm assuming?
I believe it was a theory of St. Thomas Aquinas', but I'm having some difficulty finding information about it.
Thanks, and God bless,
Diana |
| alcovey |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:51:56
You'll have to clue us in on what you mean, Diana  |
| Gadfly |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:42:45
Well, as I understood it, the shorter one is the "companion" sword which could be used indoors, and would be worn indoors, while the longer one would only be worn and used outdoors. (Longer swords tend to hit ceilings and walls and such, and are a bother in enclosed fighting.) Lengths... I'm no expert, but I think the longer one would have about 30" of blade, give or take a few, while the shorter would have around 20".
In other cultures they had different two-sword styles. Rapier fighters in the Middle Ages often had a left-hand parrying dagger called a gauche. That would have been shorter, under two feet in length.
Now, out of curiousity, what is the "two sword" theory you were originally referring to? Something theological, I'm assuming?
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| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 10:27:39
Gadfly, you've got me curious about the two lengths of swords. What are their lengths? Is there some reason they are a certain length? |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 01/28/2005 : 08:02:44
Gadfly, it was not what I was originally referring to, but I do think it's relevent, so thanks |
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