| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Astralis |
Posted - 05/08/2002 : 23:02:41
Is Peter the Rock? Baptists and Catholics discuss.
Astralis |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ftbond |
Posted - 05/20/2012 : 22:43:47
If you want some seriously good info on this Peter Petros petra kepha thing, then go check out this site:
http://www.freetowne.com/pppk
it's good, well documented, got sources and references, and doesn't get into doctrinal issues at all... just linguistics... |
| AbidingNHim |
Posted - 07/31/2003 : 19:00:16
quote:
Further, your calling these examples 'churches' indicates your lack of understanding that there is only one Church who is in Christ, and in whose members Christ is.
So then what did Paul mean when he said ... 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. Heb 13:17 (RSV). Is NO ONE "feeding the sheep", making sure that those dumb sheep know exactly how to lead a life worthy of the gospel. Like Paul said ... 27 Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, Phil 1:27 (RSV). |
| AbidingNHim |
Posted - 07/31/2003 : 18:55:33
quote:
I am saying that those who wrote these things are not in Christ,
yet these Christians (Presbyterians, Methodists, and Lutherans) are leading the Churches, and all of the "sheep" are looking to their church leaders to lead them, to shepherd them ... so then are the leaders AND ALL of those who are Presbyterian, Methodist or Lutheran Christians (either leaders or sheep) NOT "in Christ" at all? Are they all doomed? |
| jmgainor |
Posted - 07/31/2003 : 18:23:09
quote:
Originally posted by AbidingNHim
Are you saying then, JMG, that NONE of these churches are "in Christ"? I think that meaningful conversation w/you would mean the conversation would be dictated by you and your opinions, and when the conversation somehow threatens what you're saying, then all of a sudden, that person is engaging in meaningless conversation.
I am saying that those who wrote these things are not in Christ, as he is the Creator and Sustainer of life, and his Spirit does not lead his members to destroy the fruit of the womb. Neither does his Spirit lead his members to murder those who hold 'heretical' views. Neither does his Spirit lead his members to hold and teach 'traditions' that are in conflict with the teachings of Christ and his Gospel. Neither does his Spirit lead his members to commit indecent acts with others—especially with children, who are trusting and vulnerable by nature. Neither does his Spirit lead his members to cover up for those who commit such acts.
Further, your calling these examples 'churches' indicates your lack of understanding that there is only one Church who is in Christ, and in whose members Christ is.
So the fact that these people err in their ways does not in any way lend support to the claims of the papacy, which also holds and promotes many errors. Both are wrong; and neither are exercising the authority of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, as neither has a legitimate claim to them.
Mike
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| AbidingNHim |
Posted - 07/31/2003 : 14:52:40
quote:
Originally posted by munari
quote:
When you can understand that those who are "in Christ" do not promote homosexuality, adultery, abortion, and other such things, and can cease from trying to those attach those sins to believers who are innocent of them, perhaps you could learn to enter into a meaningful discussion.
Who is doing this?
apparently, munari, THESE CHRISTIANS are promoting homosexuality as perfectly acceptable in the eyes of God. Also, THIS CHURCH and THIS CHURCH recognizes abortion as an "option". What about THIS CHURCH which also teaching this very thing?
Are you saying then, JMG, that NONE of these churches are "in Christ"? I think that meaningful conversation w/you would mean the conversation would be dictated by you and your opinions, and when the conversation somehow threatens what you're saying, then all of a sudden, that person is engaging in meaningless conversation.
|
| jmgainor |
Posted - 07/31/2003 : 14:25:10
quote:
Originally posted by munari
quote:
When you can understand that those who are "in Christ" do not promote homosexuality, adultery, abortion, and other such things, and can cease from trying to those attach those sins to believers who are innocent of them, perhaps you could learn to enter into a meaningful discussion.
Who is doing this?
Munari,
Try the 5th post on this page, if you really want to know.
Mike |
| munari |
Posted - 07/31/2003 : 05:31:32
quote:
When you can understand that those who are "in Christ" do not promote homosexuality, adultery, abortion, and other such things, and can cease from trying to those attach those sins to believers who are innocent of them, perhaps you could learn to enter into a meaningful discussion.
Who is doing this? |
| jmgainor |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 19:13:02
ANH,
Interesting that you only pasted my responses, and not those posts to which I was responding (in the context of the rest of the thread), which would have provided justification for my responses.
When you can understand that those who are "in Christ" do not promote homosexuality, adultery, abortion, and other such things, and can cease from trying to those attach those sins to believers who are innocent of them, perhaps you could learn to enter into a meaningful discussion.
As far as those interpolated writings of Cyprian, they have been repeatedly discussed previously on this thread. I cannot understand how you can simply overlook these things. They, along with many other forgeries are the essence of popery. How you can cling to and continue to defend an institution for whom lies and deceit are the standard MO is beyond me.
Mike |
| AbidingNHim |
Posted - 07/30/2003 : 15:36:30
JMG, I don't see why my questions and asessments are any worse than your assessments of myself or any of the other catholics here on board...
you have said ...
quote:
Theophilus,
You're wrong! It is a spurious interpolation, and a fraud.
AND
And I will take their word over your source anyday and everyday. The interpolations are only more popish lies, which is the entire substance and essence of popery. You need to wake up.
In addition, you have said to admin on Popery, Scriptural office? ...
quote:
How can you assert that my statement strengthens your argument? It rather exposes and demolishes it. Or are you only being hard-headed and stubborn?
AND
If you have no care what the truth is, and are willing to continue to take refuge in lies—even after they have been repeatedly exposed as lies—then I don't need to be wasting my time here. I'd rather dust my cyber-feet off against you, and leave you to your own ruination and God's righteous judgment, rather than continue to cast pearls before swine or continue to feed what is holy to dogs.
And to theophilus, you said ...
quote:
If you were a little less biased, and a little more open to sound reason and truth, you would have sought out the CCEL link I posted
AND
Each of these statements were fitting in the context in which I made them. Astralis quipped that I was "only strengthening his arguments", when I posted relevant and compelling material that clearly refuted the material I was responding to. That is not sincere interaction, but is only a taunt, as if to say: "We don't care what the truth is; and it doesn't matter how much of it you post. Our hearts are hardened and unchangeable." Frankly, I won't waste time on that sort of interaction, as it is only to cast pearls before swine, which are incapable of appreciating them.
And finally, the one that really speaks volumes about you
quote:
ANH,
Here is the quote from CCEL (scroll to § 4).
And, if you don't like that source, here it is from New Advent (scroll to § 4).
Now, who'da ever thunk it? That some papist wood'a messed wit da writin's o' da fadders? Naw! Coodn't bee.
Welcome to the real world.
So, it seems as if you can dish is out, but when it is asked of you, you can't take it. I merely asked several things that have weighed heavy on my mind about you, yet you failed to answer even one. Instead you make another jab at me. I forgive, it really doesn't matter. You call yourself a Christian, and who am I to judge. I'm assuming that you're baptized and you believe. I was just trying to understand where you're coming from. You continually speak down to me as if I have no clue of anything (perhaps you're sexist against women) and that you know everything about everything regarding the papacy, the church, the sacraments, and what have you. Of course, you will never TRULY know FOR SURE until you meet our Lord at your death. I feel 100% confident and secure in my Lord Jesus Christ AND in my Catholic faith, with ALL of HER teachings that She guides and t |
| jmgainor |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 20:08:41
quote:
Originally posted by AbidingNHim
Dear jmgainor,
I have been wondering for a while now if all of your issues and defenses against the Catholic Church (i.e. your biased historical studies, your personally-made condemning website of the Church, and your blatant deplore of anyone who is Catholic, anyone who is FIRM in their Catholic faith AND FIRM in their belief IN the Catholic Church, of which Christ built It upon Peter, the rock and gave to him the keys to the kingdom) has increased YOUR faith:
#1 ... in our Lord Jesus Christ?
#2 ... and absolute assurance that YOUR church in which you worship IS indeed (without any doubt in your mind) the TRUE CHURCH in which our Lord established?
#3 ... and your love and charity for others?
If you say yes, the I would like to know HOW this work has changed your life for the better, deepening your faith and love, in each of these three questions? Has leaving the Church and dedicating your life to trash the Church, at whatever cost, made you a better person, a better father, husband, friend, son, worker, or whatever type of guy you are? If so, could you please explain HOW? Has it made you more charitable and loving towards ALL PEOPLE? Has leaving the Church and doing this work that you now do made you a more repentant person, self-examining yourself every day, begging and pleading with our Lord as the Servant of our Lord David did in beseeching God:
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting! Psalms 139:23-24 (RSV)
What fruit has grown and made visible from your newfound life "outside" of the Catholic Church since you chose this separation from the Church that Christ established? Since our Lord said that a tree is know by it's fruit, are these the NEW FRUITS that you now have, now that you've left the Church and made it your life mission to refute, tear down, and disdain it. The FRUITS of the SPIRIT are LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, GENTLENESS, AND SELF-CONTROL. I've yet to see you love your Catholic friends here online. Your website speaks volumes of your disdain for anyone who is remotely associated w/the Catholic Church. Which kind of joy do you get from these attacks towards Catholics ... it is certainly NOT the Joy as Paul speaks of through Spirit of our Lord, that is quite apparent. And peace? Are you TRULY at peace with yourself? Your Lord? Your life's work in this hate-crime against the Church and a beloved Servant of our Lord, the Pope. If you are at peace, then why do you HAVE to continue to deem all Catholics damned simply because they are Catholic? It seems that your work is done simply out of insecurity. How do you know without a doubt that you are infallibly correct in your assessment of the Catholic Church? What IF you're wrong? Would you EVER eat crow and admit that? Or would that harm your ego? And patience ... you have none, as it is apparent on this board. What about kindness ... I have felt NO kindness from you towards me. I've tried to answer your questions, defend what I believe, but you tear it down as quick as I can speak. You abhor anything that remotely resembles Catholicism. An interesting aspect of your personality. Goodness ... I KNOW that you must have goodness in you, yet you have not displayed it in your abhorrence towards Catholics on this board. I know that you must be a faithful person, but it seems that you're more faithful to your prosecution of Catholics than you are to serving others in love. Gentleness is NOT a description I would pick out of a bunch of adjectives to describe you, jmg. And regarding self-control, I don't know. I'm sure in some things you show self-control, but I don't know you perso |
| AbidingNHim |
Posted - 07/29/2003 : 09:13:53
Dear jmgainor,
I have been wondering for a while now if all of your issues and defenses against the Catholic Church (i.e. your biased historical studies, your personally-made condemning website of the Church, and your blatant deplore of anyone who is Catholic, anyone who is FIRM in their Catholic faith AND FIRM in their belief IN the Catholic Church, of which Christ built It upon Peter, the rock and gave to him the keys to the kingdom) has increased YOUR faith:
#1 ... in our Lord Jesus Christ?
#2 ... and absolute assurance that YOUR church in which you worship IS indeed (without any doubt in your mind) the TRUE CHURCH in which our Lord established?
#3 ... and your love and charity for others?
If you say yes, the I would like to know HOW this work has changed your life for the better, deepening your faith and love, in each of these three questions? Has leaving the Church and dedicating your life to trash the Church, at whatever cost, made you a better person, a better father, husband, friend, son, worker, or whatever type of guy you are? If so, could you please explain HOW? Has it made you more charitable and loving towards ALL PEOPLE? Has leaving the Church and doing this work that you now do made you a more repentant person, self-examining yourself every day, begging and pleading with our Lord as the Servant of our Lord David did in beseeching God:
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting! Psalms 139:23-24 (RSV)
What fruit has grown and made visible from your newfound life "outside" of the Catholic Church since you chose this separation from the Church that Christ established? Since our Lord said that a tree is know by it's fruit, are these the NEW FRUITS that you now have, now that you've left the Church and made it your life mission to refute, tear down, and disdain it. The FRUITS of the SPIRIT are LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, GENTLENESS, AND SELF-CONTROL. I've yet to see you love your Catholic friends here online. Your website speaks volumes of your disdain for anyone who is remotely associated w/the Catholic Church. Which kind of joy do you get from these attacks towards Catholics ... it is certainly NOT the Joy as Paul speaks of through Spirit of our Lord, that is quite apparent. And peace? Are you TRULY at peace with yourself? Your Lord? Your life's work in this hate-crime against the Church and a beloved Servant of our Lord, the Pope. If you are at peace, then why do you HAVE to continue to deem all Catholics damned simply because they are Catholic? It seems that your work is done simply out of insecurity. How do you know without a doubt that you are infallibly correct in your assessment of the Catholic Church? What IF you're wrong? Would you EVER eat crow and admit that? Or would that harm your ego? And patience ... you have none, as it is apparent on this board. What about kindness ... I have felt NO kindness from you towards me. I've tried to answer your questions, defend what I believe, but you tear it down as quick as I can speak. You abhor anything that remotely resembles Catholicism. An interesting aspect of your personality. Goodness ... I KNOW that you must have goodness in you, yet you have not displayed it in your abhorrence towards Catholics on this board. I know that you must be a faithful person, but it seems that you're more faithful to your prosecution of Catholics than you are to serving others in love. Gentleness is NOT a description I would pick out of a bunch of adjectives to describe you, jmg. And regarding self-control, I don't know. I'm sure in some things you show self-control, but I don't know you personally. I don't know if you treat your wife (if you have one) or your sister or mother with tender loving care, especially if they ARE Catholic and don't maintain your s |
| jmgainor |
Posted - 07/28/2003 : 16:53:35
quote:
Originally posted by Admin
Thank you Trentino!
jmgainor,
Seek and learn the truth. Don't you think it's remarkable that the Jews constantly speak out in defense of the Catholic Church - especially those who were direct witnesses?
Does your saying it make it true? I don't think so.
Catholic-Jewish relations were, however, placed under strain by the continued erection of crosses at the Nazi death camp near Auschwitz and by the canonization of Edith Stein and the beatification of Alojzije Stepinac in October; both were regarded by the Catholic Church as martyrs to Nazism, but many Jews observed that Stein died because of her Jewish origins rather than her Catholic faith and that Stepinac allegedly cooperated during World War II with the Nazi-oriented regime in Croatia.
Britannica, from Year in Review 1998: Religion: Judaism
**********************************
Within days of issuing its first report, the Inter Agency Group on Nazi Assets was asked to prepare another report dealing with the neutrals and their financial and economic dealings with the Axis. Thus, in the summer of 1997, its researchers from three federal agencies began to do their research again with NARA's assistance. As research was getting underway news stories, based on NARA's holdings, about the Vatican's Holocaust-Era assets involvement, particularly the assets stolen by the Croatian Utashi and sent to the Vatican, prompted President Clinton to direct Eizenstat, who at the time was the Under Secretary of State, to also study the fate of the assets seized by the Croatians.
The second Eizenstat report was issued in June 1998. The report provided a detailed analysis of the economic roles played by the neutral countries and the factors that shaped those roles. Prominent in the report was a focus on those countries' trading links with the Axis, as well as on their handling of looted assets, especially gold. Also addressed in the report was the fate of the Croatian Ustashi treasury and the Vatican's role during and immediately after the war.
It started in 1996 with gold and Jewish bank accounts. In 1997 art works and insurance, and non-monetary gold [that is, victims' gold from the death camps, such as dental gold], and the role of the Vatican were added; in 1998 slave labor, alleged American and foreign bank misdeeds; looted archives and libraries; and Jewish communal and religious property were being studied. At the end of 1998 Lord Janner, who heads the London-based Holocaust Educational Trust, stated the "hunt for Nazi loot has turned into the greatest treasure hunt in history. We don't know where it will end." Since he made those remarks the research has broadened to encompass looted diamonds and securities, as well as the role of American corporations in their dealings with the Nazis.
link
**************************
The Vatican dismissed the Croatian massacres and genocide against Orthodox Serbs and Jews as 'teething troubles of a new regime' in a statement by Monsignor Domenico Tardini of the Vatican state secretariat.
link
****************************
Of course, Stepinac was easily outdone in fascist criminality by other high ranking clergy, most infamously by the second highest ranking cleric in fascist Croatia, the Archbishop of Sarajevo, Ivan Sharich—called "the Hangman of Serbs" by his fellow Ustashi. Sharich had been a secret member of the Ustasha since 1934, and had been in close contact with them at least since 1931. Whereas Stepinac was willing to spare the lives of some Jews and Serbs |
| jmgainor |
Posted - 07/28/2003 : 16:32:09
Trentino,
Your material is only damage control—trying to highlight whatever can portray these individuals in a positive light. Your material was likely taken from these two webpages, at least one of which I have long been aware.
The truth is that, even after the war, the Vatican harbored Pavelic, and others of the Ustashe war criminals, and aided them in their escape from justice. Further, the loot from the victims of the genocide passed through the Vatican. These things are the findings of U.S. intelligence agents. That is why there is currently a lawsuit ongoing in which the Vatican Bank and other popish organizations are defendents. These things are shown on my Croatian Holocaust page. The evidence of guilt is simply too strong to allow for the exoneration of the papacy, the Vatican, or Stepinac.
While the Vatican pleads that the private audience which Pavelic was given in 1941 was given under the papal ignorance of the crimes that were being committed, that simply cannot hold water. It was a well-known fact that Pavelic had been tried in absentia by both France and Yugoslavia, and condemned to death for the 1934 assassination of Yugoslav King Alexander. He sought and found refuge in Italy. Thus he was well known to be a condemned murderer (assassin) and a fugitive from justice. Thus, for him to be given any kind of audience was an impropriety. Your papal whitewash apparatus can spit out all the excuses and accolades it wishes; it cannot exhonerate these people in light of the evidence. There was/is an underlying evil at work, which is obvious to all but the wilfully blind. Further, Pavelic had to be received at the Vatican as a private individual, rather than a head of state, as the NDH (independent Croatia) was a lawless regime, and the Vatican still maintained diplomatic relations with the exiled Yugoslav government. Thus, they could not give de jure (legal) recognition to the NDH.
All of your whitewash excuses and arguments simply don't hold up under scrutiny. The evidence to the contrary is too damning.
Mike |
| Astralis |
Posted - 07/28/2003 : 16:13:46
Thank you Trentino!
jmgainor,
Seek and learn the truth. Don't you think it's remarkable that the Jews constantly speak out in defense of the Catholic Church - especially those who were direct witnesses? |
| Trentino |
Posted - 07/28/2003 : 15:03:57
Quote-jmgainor----You are stooping low to try to deny the facts here. The fact is still a certainty that the "http://jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/MDPC/CH/CH.htm" occurred, and that the Vatican was fully complicit in it. You ought rather to be picking the log out of your own eye than trying to point out the sins of another for exposing the sins of your idolatry.
Mike
Here are the facts take from historical information instead of a well known anti- Catholic sources. You have revealed your agenda here by using anti-Catholicism as your primary means of attack. You need to rely on a positive presentation of a faith to which you hope to convert Catholics. For the most part, you present a distorted view of Catholic practices, and re-write history from an anti-Catholic perspective. Ask yourself would Christ use these tactics?
If it is a sin to bear false testimony against one individual, how can we characterize the crime of those who calumniate 1 billion human beings, by attributing to them doctrines and practices which they repudiate and abhor?
Now for the truth.
According to a report of the British Naval Intelligence Division from 1944, the Croatian "Roman Catholic clergy, following the example of monsignor Stepinac, the Zagreb Archbishop, energetically protested against ustasha persecutions of Serbs and Jews, as well as against government's attempts for forced conversion to Roman Catholicism" (written by experts from Oxford and Cambridge in 1944, with note `only for official use'
Only two days after the arrest of Stepinac in 1946 a protest conference was organized by Louis Breier in New York (Bronx), at that time the president of the Jewish community in the USA. He declared:
This great man was tried as a collaborator of Nazism. We protest against this slander. He has always been a sincere friend of Jews, and was not hiding this even in times of cruel persecutions under the regime of Hitler and his followers. Alongside with Pope Pius XII, Archbishop Stepinac was the greatest protector of persecuted Jews in Europe. (my translation from a Croatian "jewss.html" \l "izvor").
His sermons were not allowed to be printed publicly during the NDH period (1941-1945), so that people multiplied and spread them in secret. Glaise von Herstenau, a German Nazi general in Zagreb, declared: "If any bishop in Germany were speaking this way, he would not descend alive from his pulpit!" And when Stepinac visited the Holy See in 1943, he was warned that his life is in danger from the Nazis. There he met "art.html" \l "mest", a famous Croatian sculptor, to whom he said: "With God (=farewell), we are about not to see each other any more. Either Nazists will kill me now, or Communists will kill me later." Here are some characteristic extracts from his public sermons held in Croatian churches during the NDH period (1941-1945):
· All people of all colors are God's children. All of them, without any discrimination whatsoever, be they Gypsies, black people, civilized Europeans, Jews or proud Aryans are equally entitled to say" `Our Father who art in heaven...' That is why the Catholic Church has always condemned and it still condemns any injustice committed in the name of class, racial or nationalistic theories. Gypsies and Jews must not be exterminated in the name of a theory which claim that they belong to an inferior race. (A part of the sermon delivered in the Zagreb Cathedral on October 24, 1942.)
· There is a diversity of peoples and nations on the Earth. Mankind represents a unique whole. All of them have their roots in God. And all of them, be they of Aryan or non-Aryan race, have the same human nature.
· We were always accentuating in our public life the principles of eternal life of God, regardless to whether Croats, Serbs, Jews, Gypses, Catholics, Pravoslavs were in question, or anybody else. Catholic Church knows for races and peoples as creations of God, and its respect goes more to those with |
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