| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Robert Mazar |
Posted - 03/25/2006 : 10:53:02
The following Catholic doctrines and parts of the Mass are illogical and unscriptural:(1)Baptism does not impart salvation to the infant or adult being Baptized(Baptism is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus),(2)Purgatory(Nowhere in the New Testament is Purgatory mentioned(Heaven and Hell are mentioned in the New Testament. Also if there was a Purgatory then that would negate Christ's sacrifice on the Cross.),(3)Papal Infallibility(The Pope is not infallible on anything),(4)The second half of the Hail Mary Prayer(Asking the dead Virgin Mary to pray for us is stating that the Virgin Mary is a mediator between God and Man and that is going against what it states in 1 Timothy 2:5 where it states that there is only one mediator between God and Man and that is Christ),(5)Individual Confession(Nowhere in the New Testament does it state to confess sins to any man. On the contrary it states to only pray to Christ for forgiveness of sins.),(6)Transubstantiation(Nowhere in the New Testament does it state that the bread and wine become the actual flesh and blood of Christ. At the Last Supper Christ did not turn the bread and wine into the actual flesh and blood of Christ. The Lutheran doctrine of Consubstantiation is more scriptural then the doctrine of Transubstantiation is.),(7)The idea that the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick remits sins goes against what it states in the Book of Saint James where it states that the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick is just for healing the sick,(8)The Mass as a sacrifice,(9)Praying to and bowing down to statues of the Vigin Mary and the Saints. |
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| StRitasmiracle |
Posted - 04/14/2006 : 13:42:47
Robert,
Keep going to Mass, whatever your motivation is. Out of habit,I used to go to Mass every Sunday with a drunken hangover and a stranger left sleeping in my bed (excuse me if that was too graphic). God gives his love and grace to everyone, even to people who really need it :-). If He is leading you into fuller conformity with the Catholic Church, you seem like a sincere enough person that you will respond to His grace in His time. Meanwhile, He will draw you closer when you attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, even if you don't believe in every aspect of it.
I don't recommend receiving communion, especially if you are in a state of mortal sin that requires sacramental confession (I do not presume that you are in a state of sin). I am shy about confessing, too. Fortunately, I have a great option in my area. I go to the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception where the priests can't see me, they don't recognize my voice, and they don't know me. Maybe you could go to a different parish? This is assuming that you can find a priest who doesn't do confessions by appointment only or celebrate the sacrament in his office like a psychiatrist. |
| Theophilus |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 06:45:02
Robert,
The fact that it is filled to capacity has nothing to do with whether it is right.
I do comprehend shyness, but I also know that God doesn't give us the Sacraments without purpose.
When was the last time you even tried individual confession? Most priests I know are extremely charitable and thoughtful dealing with penitents who are shy or who haven't gone for a long time.
The Catholic Church isn't Burger King. You can't just have it your way.
There are reasons, valid ones, for the manner in which the Church expects her faithful to receive the Sacraments. At the neighboring town, if the Church is offering the Communal Reconciliation Service instead of individual confession, they are commiting a pretty serious offense to Church teaching and law, and doing a terrible disservice to people like yourself by making you believe that you are acting in accord with Church teaching. If they offer the service with the expectation that people will receive the Sacrament individually, then this makes sense, and you simply aren't following through on the offer of individual confession.
You and the other Catholics attending this service, thinking you have received absolution for your mortal sins, are being deluded. The Church is unambiguous about the fact that it is only under extraordinary circumstances that general absolution is intended to be used, and even then we are expected later to receive the Sacrament as it is intended.
I don't care if every Catholic in the world went to this service. If it is as you say, then it is a violation of Church law.
You may not believe me, but perhaps you will believe the Catechism:
quote:
1482 The sacrament of Penance can also take place in the framework of a communal celebration in which we prepare ourselves together for confession and give thanks together for the forgiveness received. Here, the personal confession of sins and individual absolution are inserted into a liturgy of the word of God with readings and a homily, an examination of conscience conducted in common, a communal request for forgiveness, the Our Father and a thanksgiving in common. This communal celebration expresses more clearly the ecclesial character of penance. However, regardless of its manner of celebration the sacrament of Penance is always, by its very nature, a liturgical action, and therefore an ecclesial and public action. 91
1483 In case of grave necessity recourse may be had to a communal celebration of reconciliation with general confession and general absolution. Grave necessity of this sort can arise when there is imminent danger of death without sufficient time for the priest or priests to hear each penitent's confession. Grave necessity can also exist when, given the number of penitents, there are not enough confessors to hear individual confessions properly in a reasonable time, so that the penitents through no fault of their own would be deprived of sacramental grace or Holy Communion for a long time. In this case, for the absolution to be valid the faithful must have the intention of individually confessing their grave sins in the time required. 92 The diocesan bishop is the judge of whether or not the conditions required for general absolution exist. 93 A large gathering of the faithful on the occasion of major feasts or pilgrimages does not constitute a case of grave necessity. 94
1484 "Individual, integral confession and absolution remain the only ordinary way for the faithful to reconcile themselves with God and the Church, unless physical or moral impossibility excuses from this kind of confession." 95 There are profound reasons for this. Christ is at work in each of the sacraments. He personally addresses every sinner: "My son, your sins are forgiven." 96 He is the physician tending each one of the sic |
| Robert Mazar |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 06:21:33
Theophilus,
You obviously do not comprehend shyness at all. If Communal Reconciliation Service with General Absolution is not to be utilized in place of Individual Confession then why is it that every time that I attend Communal Reconciliation Service at a Catholic Church in a neighboring town(Because the Catholic Church that I attend and belong to only has Individual Confession) the church is filled almost to capacity? Obviously not every Catholic goes to Individual Confession. |
| Theophilus |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 06:03:31
quote:
What happens if a Catholic is shy and is uncomfortable communicating to the Priest and confessing sins to the Priest? In that case then they have to go to Communal Reconciliation Service instead of Individual Confession.
No. Such a person confesses behind the screen. Your shyness isn't an excuse to fail to follow Catholic teaching. It's a crutch. The Church simply makes no exception other than extreme circumstances, as stated above. |
| Robert Mazar |
Posted - 04/11/2006 : 05:52:35
Theophilus,
If I remember correctly I stated that I have not yet atttended church services at my brothers Non Denominational Protestant Church. I also stated that I may attend church services at my brothers Non Denominational Protestant Church one time. And if I do I will not substitute the Non Denominational Protestant Church services for the Mass because I will attend the Saturday Vigil Mass like I always do and then attend the Non Denominational Protestant Church on Sunday morning(Next day).
What happens if a Catholic is shy and is uncomfortable communicating to the Priest and confessing sins to the Priest? In that case then they have to go to Communal Reconciliation Service instead of Individual Confession. |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 15:39:38
Yes, thank you for clarifying. That's what I recall being said on the other forum as well. |
| Theophilus |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 11:47:55
Diana,
Even when general absolution is done as part of a communal service, the expectation is that, if the danger passes, the person is to attend confession.
Take a soldier receiving it prior to a battle. If he survives the war, the expectation is that he later on would go to confession. |
| alcovey |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 11:16:17
quote:
Originally posted by Diana Holberg
Up until then I'd not even been aware of communal reconciliation services. My understanding is that they never take the place of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (which involves individual confession) unless there is a threat of loss of life (such as with the Titanic or something comparable).
Yes, that's exactly right. We have those services twice a year at my parish - at Advent and Easter - and it is always made clear that individual confession is to follow. While the communal services are very rewarding on their own merits, it is not a substitute. Although I suspect many Catholics may take the view Robert does. I wonder if any Protestant churches do them - that would be appropriate for a Protestant belief, but not Catholic. |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 09:03:54
One idea: Martyr complex. |
| Theophilus |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 08:59:47
Diana,
It typically doesn't work that way, but Christ isn't bound by the Sacraments. The challenge is that we have to cooperate with that Grace, and it appears Robert is unable or unwilling to do so.
As an aside, I don't think Robert would be here if there weren't some kind of an inkling, deep in his conscience, that things should be different. Why keep taking the punishment otherwise? |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 08:56:02
quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
I remember similar posts at COL, before the poster was blocked and the threads locked for persistent anti-Catholic rhetoric.
I didn't remember that part. Only that similar sentiments regarding confession and communal services were posted. Up until then I'd not even been aware of communal reconciliation services. My understanding is that they never take the place of the Sacrament of Reconciliation (which involves individual confession) unless there is a threat of loss of life (such as with the Titanic or something comparable).
quote:
I just hope and pray that the Body and Blood of Christ Robert is receiving, though he doesn't believe in it, will ultimately give him the Grace, which he denies, to follow the Church he attends out of theological agreement, not just convenience.
Amen. But does it work that way? If so, I should be receiving in ways other than spiritually...
[Edit: Never mind... I see you answered in a post made while I was writing this one...] |
| Theophilus |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 08:53:03
Robert,
Explain what is illogical or unscriptural about the Mass. If we can prove otherwise, will you change your mind?
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| Theophilus |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 08:52:07
Bottom line:
If one disagrees with the Catholic Church on a matter of dogma, one places oneself outside the Church, even if that person still attends Mass and receives the Eucharist.
For one to receive the Eucharist, when one has consciously denied the Real Presence, is sacrilegious.
For one to receive the Eucharist without receiving absolution for Moral Sin in the manner the Church requires: individual confession, is sacrilegious, no matter how private someone is (hence the opportunity for confession from behind the screen).
Robert's loyalty to Catholicism (except when he attends his brother's Protestant church, which in and of itself is a mortal sin, if done deliberately instead of Mass) is commendable, but one hopes that it will ultimately be based on accepting all of the teachings that the Church requires us to accept in order to be counted in her number, rather than the ones he has decided on his own to accept. Otherwise, Catholicism is like a club where Robert fails to live up to the by-laws for membership, but still attends meetings. |
| Theophilus |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 08:45:15
I remember similar posts at COL, before the poster was blocked and the threads locked for persistent anti-Catholic rhetoric.
I just hope and pray that the Body and Blood of Christ Robert is receiving, though he doesn't believe in it, will ultimately give him the Grace, which he denies, to follow the Church he attends out of theological agreement, not just convenience. |
| Diana Holberg |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 08:41:58
What I think is irrational is going to Catholic web sites and cutting and pasting the same info over an over. But hey, if you've got that kind of time on your hands, knock yourself out.
That last post sparks my memory. I do believe I read your posts just over a year ago on another forum where you went by Albert/Michael. Ring any bells? |
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