| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Robert Mazar |
Posted - 05/04/2006 : 06:06:45
I accept the Augsburg Confession of Faith of the Lutheran Church and I accept the Westminster Confession of Faith of the Presbyterian Church and I accept the Belgic Confession, the Heidelberg Catechism and the Canons of Dort of the Reformed Church In America. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Theophilus |
Posted - 05/26/2006 : 03:59:05
Christ Himself said, "The Father is not the God of the dead, but of the living." |
| StRitasmiracle |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 16:13:13
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Mazar
Nicene,
Yes I believe that there are saints on earth. But that is not what the Communion of Saints in the Apostles and Nicene Creeds are referring to. The Communion of Saints are the Saints in Heaven but the Saints in Heaven do not know what is going on down here on earth because the Bible is very explicit that the dead do not know what is going on down ere on earth.
The saints in heaven are not dead. In Christ all are made alive. |
| Nicene |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 15:38:35
Another thought just struck me, how do you know the "communion of saints " in the Apostles creed is talking about the saints in heaven and not the saints on earth? You must have some patricitic evidence we don't know about.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene |
| Nicene |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 15:16:07
quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
Robert,
Timothy doesn't state anything about intercession. Only mediation.
/nod, and what does Christ mediate?
But don't forget Heb 7:24 and 9:25. (to throw a monkeywrench  )
Peace and God Bless
Nicene |
| Nicene |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 15:14:51
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Mazar
Nicene,
Yes I believe that there are saints on earth. But that is not what the Communion of Saints in the Apostles and Nicene Creeds are referring to. The Communion of Saints are the Saints in Heaven but the Saints in Heaven do not know what is going on down here on earth because the Bible is very explicit that the dead do not know what is going on down ere on earth.
So instead of one church there are two churches by this definition. One church in heaven and one church on earth. That's a huge error.
Mk 35:15 Some of the bystanders who heard it said, "Look, he is calling Elijah."
Look the bystanders think he is calling on Elijah, but wait, isn't Elijah in heaven? What is this blasphemy by the Jews thinking Jesus can pray to people in heaven? Jesus being Jewish would never believe such a thing either, would he?
Mk 9:3: and his garments became glistening, intensely white, as no fuller on earth could bleach them.
4: And there appeared to them Eli'jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus.
5: And Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is well that we are here; let us make three booths, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli'jah."
What is this? Jesus talking to Elijah and Moses? Surely they can't hear him, and most definately the apostles can't.
Rev 8:3: And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
4: and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
Now wait a minute. The saints in heaven are standing right there in front of God. Can't they just pray to him? What need do the saints in heaven have that an angel intercedes for them and offers up their prayers. Why is that angel interceding for anyone, can't they just go to Jesus? Unless of course it isn't the prayers of the saints in heaven (which in effect says Christs sacrifice was ineffective sinse the saints in heaven cannot approach God under this system) but the angel offering up the prayers of the saints on earth. Ahh now it makes sense. So we can ask for their prayers and approach Jesus both, how cool is that.
The saints on earth:
Eph 1:1: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phil 1:1: Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philip'pi, with the bishops and deacons:
2: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:2: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ at Colos'sae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.
1 Cor 1:2: To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
2 Cor:1: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Acha'ia:
Where you decided what the Apostles creed means by communion of saints is beyond me. If that is the case then the Eastern Orthodox would also subscribe to this differing belief. Yet they don't.
How is it you are the only catholic with a differing view? That seems odd considering that is what the church professes (both east and west) yet you do not profess it. In professing this oath before God, but not reall |
| Theophilus |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 14:28:15
Robert,
Timothy doesn't state anything about intercession. Only mediation. |
| Robert Mazar |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 14:25:44
alcovey,
In 1 Timothy 2:5 states explicitly that CHRIST IS THE ONLY MEDIATOR AND INTERCESSOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN. It does not mention in 1 Timothy 2:5 anything about that the Virgin Mary and the Saints are also mediators and intercessors between God and Man. I believe that the Virgin Mary was ever virgin and did not have any other children after Christ. Martin Luther retained the belief that the Virgin Mary remained ever virgin and did not have any other children after Christ. The Virgin Mary was not conceived without original sin because the Bible states that Christ was the only one who was born without original sin. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the Virgin Mary was conceived without original sin. When I am handed the bread and the cup of wine I do not say Amen or bow the head because that would be acknowledging the belief that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Christ and I do not believe that the bread and wine are the actual body and blood of Christ. I accept the Lutheran doctrine concerning Holy Communion. I do so believe in the Catholic Church because I am a Catholic. I believe that the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Mainline Protestant Churches are also True Churches because they acknowledge the Deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity which are the criteria for a True Church. |
| Robert Mazar |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 14:11:49
Nicene,
Yes I believe that there are saints on earth. But that is not what the Communion of Saints in the Apostles and Nicene Creeds are referring to. The Communion of Saints are the Saints in Heaven but the Saints in Heaven do not know what is going on down here on earth because the Bible is very explicit that the dead do not know what is going on down ere on earth. |
| Nicene |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 13:44:59
Hi Reformed,
Good to see you back. I hope you visited my last reply to you in the "only one religion..." thread and take what I said sincerely.
"Eeeee dogey, pull up a chair and set a while." As uncle Jedd used to say
Peace and God Bless
Nicene |
| Reformed |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 13:07:12
quote:
I'll be more than happy to, but answer my question first if you please, this is the third time. Avoiding it won't do much to bolster your position.
I'm not Robert, God be praised. This is your good old neighborhood Calvinist here. |
| Nicene |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 12:37:05
quote:
Originally posted by Reformed
quote:
Originally posted by Nicene And you are wrong according to scripture.
I know this is in your Tradition, but do you also hold that it is in Scripture? I'd be interested in seeing that.
I'll be more than happy to, but answer my question first if you please, this is the third time. Avoiding it won't do much to bolster your position.
My answer is already typed out and tabbed up in wordpad waiting to go, just awaiting the answer to the above question first.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene |
| alcovey |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 11:27:45
Robert,
What kind of college degree did you receive? I ask this because your reading comprehension and logical skills are surprisingly lacking.
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Mazar
Why do you keep stating that I do not believe in the Communion of Saints and the Virgin Mary? I believe that there is a Communion of Saints in Heaven and I believe in the Virgin Mary. I just do not believe that it is scriptural to pray to and ask for the intercession of the Virgin Mary and the Saints.
THAT is the very definition! The whole doctrine of Communion of Saints IS PRECISELY the fact that we are in communion with them and can thus pray to them. (ask their intercession)
As far as the Virgin Mary - you must believe all that the Church teaches about her. Implicitly, you have already denied her role as mother and advocate to the Church. But I suspect there is very little of the Catholic beliefs about Mary that you do accept. Did she remain a virgin her entire life? Did she have other children? Is she the Ark of the New Covenant? Was she preserved from the stain of original and actual sin from her conception? Given your lack of understanding of the even the most basic of Catholic doctrines, I will not even get into the other Marian Dogmas and Teachings. But when you say: "I believe.....born of the Virgin Mary...." that is what you are saying. And when you say "Amen" and by receiving Holy Communion, you profess that you believe these things.
quote:
Why do you state that I do not believe in the Holy Catholic Church? I do so believe in the Catholic Church because I am a Catholic.
No. You don't believe in the One Holy Catholic Church - you believe there are many churches that exist and are valid.
Mike said this to you before, and I will say it as well - it is Catholics like you, who dissent and make light of the Church's Teachings that muddy the waters and make it hard for people to see what Catholicism truly is. This is what kept me from even investigating Catholicism for most of my life. It makes Catholicsm look like a sham and a big joke when people profess with their mouths one thing, and act in a complete opposite manner.
I truly hope and pray that you will take these things to heart. Robert, we have not failed to warn you in the sight of God and man. |
| Reformed |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 11:23:37
quote:
Originally posted by Nicene And you are wrong according to scripture.
I know this is in your Tradition, but do you also hold that it is in Scripture? I'd be interested in seeing that. |
| Nicene |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 11:06:44
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Mazar
Nicene,
Naturally I believe that there are Saints in Heaven because I stated that I believe that there is a Communion of Saints in Heaven.
That's not what I asked, read it again.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene |
| Robert Mazar |
Posted - 05/25/2006 : 11:04:00
Nicene,
Naturally I believe that there are Saints in Heaven because I stated that I believe that there is a Communion of Saints in Heaven. The Bible in 1 Timothy 2:5 explicitly states that Christ is the only mediator and intercessor between God and Man. Now how much plainer can that be? And yes I believe that the Virgin Mary remained ever virgin. Martin Luther retained the belief that the Virgin Mary remained ever virgin. |
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