| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Radagast |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 21:21:19
One of the great things about this forum is that it connects me to material I might otherwise have missed. One of these is the material at internetmonk.com.
In an essay posted today Mike Spencer muses about a key Evangelical leader who has converted to Catholicism http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/thoughts-on-beckwith#comments.
I'd like to take it to a higher level and discuss a trend I see occuring on the Protestant and Evangelical side of things; that being the movement towards the ancient church Universal or the embracing of things catholic (with a small c).
Admittedly I am a novice in my direct experience with non-Catholics, seeing myself as an outsider looking in, but none-the-less I see this movement through articles and discussions.
An article in the Christian Century http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=2290 highlights the journeys of six theologians from liberal denominations and their reasons for converting to Catholicism. other articles talk about Evangelicals joining Eastern Orthodoxy. Still others such as Internetmonk define themselves as post-evangelical or Reformed-Catholics with catholic leanings, embracing creeds, Church Fathers, mystics, and even Catholic Concepts. The common thread from my perspective is that they are rejecting the concept of scripture in a bubble.
Why is this occuring? It is refreshing from a learned Catholic viewpoint that members of other denominations are taking time to read and learn about the ancient Church with its deposit of faith after watching so many of my Catholic brethren leave the Church because it wasn't satisfying their feelings (OK - a biased generalization here). But what is driving this? Is it because of the chaos out in Evangelical land because churches are going in many different directions? Is it because members are reaching spiritual maturity and realizing there is more out there?
I don't know the answers to these questions because of my lack of on-the-ground exposure to the Evangelical/Protestant/Non-denominational side of things (except through reading and friends) but I know there are those here at this forum who can shed some light.
For our discussion if interested...
Peace,
Radagast |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| JustaServant |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 14:37:01
quote:
Originally posted by philial
I believe that we are seeing the changes instituted by vatican 2 bearing fruit.
The formal recognition by that council that all the baptised are, to one degree or another, members of the Church, acted, as it were, as an olive branch, an invitation to 'come and see'.Additionally,with the Liturgy re-presented in everyday language it allowed the liturgical prayers to be seen for their biblical & theological purity, and their historical integrity. Also, Protestantism began to recognise that it, too, taught traditionally as well as biblically.
Once certain barriers are removed, then, as Radagast observes, the true hunger for God begins.
Very good post.
The tide is turning. Not necessarily to christians joining the Roman Catholic church, but an imitation of long-held traditions that are both Biblical and historical. |
| philial |
Posted - 05/11/2007 : 12:58:04
I believe that we are seeing the changes instituted by vatican 2 bearing fruit.
The formal recognition by that council that all the baptised are, to one degree or another, members of the Church, acted, as it were, as an olive branch, an invitation to 'come and see'.Additionally,with the Liturgy re-presented in everyday language it allowed the liturgical prayers to be seen for their biblical & theological purity, and their historical integrity. Also, Protestantism began to recognise that it, too, taught traditionally as well as biblically.
Once certain barriers are removed, then, as Radagast observes, the true hunger for God begins. |
| mikejuli |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 04:30:31
quote:
Originally posted by SolaChristo
Our diversity can be a good thing. Forced universalism is a pitfall that should be avoided.
Its interesting that when Evangelicals drift toward Catholism it is in search of "deeper" issues and more substance. When the reverse is true it is a search for sensationalism, emotionalism and fellowship with creatures rather than the creator, interesting phenomenon. 
good point sola... that is exacltly my experience... when i left the church it was because the charismatics church seemed more alive... it worshipped louder, was certainly more of an emotional (which i believe is good) and fellowship. what brought me back to the catholic church was the deeper issues and substance.
a friend from work who is catholic and seeking in the evangelical realm told me the same thing.. the appeal is the emotional side of things.... and the pool table at church.. (i'm really not joking). i know that this is not typical but it does seem to be a trend to make church more "fun" and user friendly. i think those are both big sellers and not totally wrong, but there is nothing universal about catering to the young only, and that is my beef.
mike |
| JustaServant |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 04:21:45
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
The typical catholic convert to protestantism is generally poorly catechized. Many know very little about what the church teaches.
I'll give a hearty Baptist 'Amen' to that. Going from Catholic to fundamentalist in the 1980s I heard many things that were said of the RCC that were simply not true. These things were coming from people who knew nothing of Catholics, just what they were told by 'the preacher'. I remember hearing 'the Catholics worship Mary'. I would respond 'no they don't. But they were more willing to listen to a guy who got his information from Bob Jones University instead of a guy who GREW UP in the church and might know what he's talking about. |
| JustaServant |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 04:14:50
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Diversity as opposed to the perfect unity that Jesus prayed for?
One thing that is very apparent when one studies church history is the diversity of christians by geograpical location. There are similarities, but walk into a Greek or Syrian Orthodox church and the differences are very obvious. The RCC in America is very different than other parts of the globe. People have a tendancy to combine much of their culture with christianity. On the other hand there is a unity that transends the culture and country. I'd have to look it up, but I believe it was Cyprian that commented on the diversity and the unity of the church of his time.
Unity is something the church has struggled with for 2000 years. |
| Radagast |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 20:52:47
Hi SoloChristo,
quote:
[...]When the reverse is true it is a search for sensationalism, emotionalism and fellowship with creatures rather than the creator, interesting phenomenon.
I may have implied this but that was not in my heart. From a person first beginning my spiritual walk there were times I felt the pull towards the non-denominational church. I observed behavior that always had me thinking "Why can't I seemingly love my neighbor like that?" And I enjoyed, as I became deeper in scripture, the devotion that the ND showed for the Word of God. But what you described, even with a wink, can sometimes be true.
Peace,
Radagast |
| jdubya |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 20:42:35
Diversity as opposed to the perfect unity that Jesus prayed for?
Just look at the people that are crossing paths. The typical catholic convert to protestantism is generally poorly catechized. Many know very little about what the church teaches. I count myself among that group and there are plenty in the ND church I attend. On the other hand, you have ex-pastors and highly committed, bible literate Protestants (many previously rabid anti-Catholics) that are coming to the Catholic Church.
Want to find out why they became Catholic? There are many that you can listen to here:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/audio.htm
|
| SolaChristo |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 19:05:05
Our diversity can be a good thing. Forced universalism is a pitfall that should be avoided.
Its interesting that when Evangelicals drift toward Catholism it is in search of "deeper" issues and more substance. When the reverse is true it is a search for sensationalism, emotionalism and fellowship with creatures rather than the creator, interesting phenomenon. |
| JustaServant |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 18:00:44
I think evangelicals are looking for genunine stable authority on Biblical issues. I know I grow very tired of the latest evangelical 'Pope with a Bible'. Preaching the Word is very important, but the preacher is not and should not be the center of worship. That is very dangerous.
I also think evangelicals wish to know the mystery and awe of entering into the presence of God. I attended an Episcopal service a couple weeks ago and was very impressed with the respect people had with being in God's house. The quietness, the silent prayer. That is NEVER found in Baptist churches. |
| Radagast |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 07:26:40
Hi JaS,
I had a feeling you would have something to say on this subject. From the worship and liturgical standpoint I believe that as Christians move from a surfacy belief of feelings to something deeper they begin looking in areas that provide depth. From my (biased) perspective that means some will begin attending a service on Sunday to worship rather than be feed or more narcissistically be entertained (although we should look forward to being fed as an outcome).
Reading the Masters, ancient prayers, and devotions in my opinion help us to get there. Ancient traditions (with a small 't') such as Lent and Advent help to prepare us whether one is Catholic, Orthodox or non-Catholic.
It also becomes easier to have fuller discussions between our denominations when we are no longer comparing apples to oranges.
And emphasis on the Eucharist can being nothing but good : )
I am hopeful and praying this trend continues.
|
| Theophilus |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 04:46:35
When it does, let us know. These are some good thoughts! |
| JustaServant |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 04:18:47
Another great source is Robert Weber:
http://www.ancientfutureworship.com/
I think the reason many evangelicals are turning to the Catholic and Episcopal churches are more complicated than many evangelicals imagine. I believe it is found in two areas:
1. A longing for the Eucharist. All true Christians desire to be fed with the Body and Blood of Christ. They might not be able to put it into words, and they might not even understand the hunger within them, but that is what they are looking for. Only God can put that longing into the believer.
2. A desire for worship. The smoke and mirrors of the mega-churches burns out pretty quickly. God puts in each person a desire to worship, something. Even a non-christian worships, it might not be God, but it's worship nonetheless. One cannot worship with just the mind. One cannot worship by sitting in a pew staring. Liturgical worship feeds that desire.
There might be other areas, but the caffene hasn't kicked in yet. |
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