| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ChristianMomma |
Posted - 05/09/2011 : 11:07:51
Hello everyone,
I came across this article several months ago and it has troubled me a great deal. http://www.zenit.org/article-27623?l=english
This part in particular I am concerned with:
St. John Mary Vianney, besides concretely representing a supreme model of the priesthood, always proclaimed with clarity and incomparable emphasis the dignity of the priesthood and the centrality of the ordained ministry in the heart of the Church. Drawing from his teachings, the Holy Father re-proposed these words of the saint: "O, how great is the priest! … If he realized what he is, he would die. […] God obeys him: He utters a few words and the Lord descends from heaven at his voice, to be contained within a small host."
And again: "Without the Sacrament of Holy Orders, we would not have the Lord. Who put him there in that tabernacle? The priest. Who welcomed your soul at the beginning of your life? The priest. Who feeds your soul and gives it strength for its journey? The priest. Who will prepare it to appear before God, bathing it one last time in the blood of Jesus Christ? The priest, always the priest. And if this soul should happen to die [as a result of sin], who will raise it up, who will restore its calm and peace? Again, the priest… After God, the priest is everything! […] Only in heaven will he fully realize what he is."[2]
I am under the impression that ZENIT is a Catholic news source out of Rome. Is this correct? ANd do you really believe the above?
Thanks in advance for your responses. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 16:43:17
Paul was not trained by Christ. Paul was knocked off his horse and then sent to the Church to be trained. This is what it says in the Bible.
Jesus did teach Paul that He really was the Messiah, but really did not give Paul a whole lot of training other than that. |
| SolaChristo |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 06:08:19
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Read through Acts again. You won't find Paul being called an Apostle until after he is set apart and ordained with the laying on of hands.
He was preaching prior to this and felt a call to ministry, but Jesus did NOT train Paul, He sent Paul to the Church to be trained.
I beleive in the laying on of hands but my point was Paul was an apostle because he was trained by Chrit himself whereas Timothy was trained by Paul. |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 05/29/2011 : 19:41:00
Read through Acts again. You won't find Paul being called an Apostle until after he is set apart and ordained with the laying on of hands.
He was preaching prior to this and felt a call to ministry, but Jesus did NOT train Paul, He sent Paul to the Church to be trained. |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 05/29/2011 : 19:39:35
Paul was chosen by Christ but was not an Apostle until after hands were laid on him and Barnabas in Acts 13, both of those men were subsequently called Apostles after that.
Matthias also became an Apostle, inhabiting the office of "Bishop" (that is what we call someone who takes a Bishoprick - see Acts 1:20).
He was chosen by lots, to determine God's choice between two for that position, to fulfill the verse quoted. Matthias was already chosen and present at Pentecost and received his ordination at the same time as the rest of the original Apostles.
But Paul and those who came after were ordained with the laying on of hands. |
| SolaChristo |
Posted - 05/29/2011 : 16:15:12
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Glad to hear it.
And now, Paul is not a self proclaimed Apostle. Read through Acts 13 again and note that the Holy Spirit told others to call Paul and Barnabas for mission and they laid hands on them and ordained them. After this, in Acts 14 (see verses 2 and 3), both Paul and Barnabas were called Apostles.
Prior to the event in Acts 14, neither were called apostles, but Barnabas was connected to them as a believer for much earlier in Acts, and Paul since his conversion in Acts 9.
The apostles chose lots to pick an apostle to replace Judas, we never hear of this man again. Paul would have been the 13th apostle. Paul was an apostle because because he was trained by Christ---the risen Christ. Apostles are men who have been trained by Christ,modern apostles have been trained by the risen Christ. |
| mikejuli |
Posted - 05/27/2011 : 18:03:34
ehem... did you mean elisha? anyway if your not bald you wouldn't understand. |
| baby3 |
Posted - 05/27/2011 : 16:11:54
Faith how come Paul was so ticked off he sent some children away that made fun of his baldness and sent the wild bores after them and they were killed? That is not Christian, what happened to forgive and forget? B3 |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 05/27/2011 : 12:05:31
I don't believe or accept self-proclaimed apostles. In the Bible, Jesus selected them personally, and after that, it was only through the laying on of hands by previously appointed Apostles that this was continued.
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| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 05/27/2011 : 12:03:11
Glad to hear it.
And now, Paul is not a self proclaimed Apostle. Read through Acts 13 again and note that the Holy Spirit told others to call Paul and Barnabas for mission and they laid hands on them and ordained them. After this, in Acts 14 (see verses 2 and 3), both Paul and Barnabas were called Apostles.
Prior to the event in Acts 14, neither were called apostles, but Barnabas was connected to them as a believer for much earlier in Acts, and Paul since his conversion in Acts 9. |
| SolaChristo |
Posted - 05/27/2011 : 10:26:40
BTW I believe Paul is an apostle but I got there an entirely different way than you did. |
| SolaChristo |
Posted - 05/27/2011 : 10:25:41
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
So the fact that the others called Paul an Apostle in the Bible is not good enough? You need a date and a certificate from Jesus?
Jesus selected Paul on the road to Damascus and SENT him to become part of the Church. The details were not specific that Paul was appointed, but that Fact was made very clear in the New Testament.
Even Paul confirms this in his letters (not an exhaustive list, but some examples):
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
Since Paul views this apostleship as being by command of Christ and not just acceptance by men as an apostle, then he is either lying, or Jesus did appoint him as an Apostle.
Luke recognized Paul as an Apostle:
Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
Saul was called in Acts 9, and in Acts 13, the Holy Spirit indicates that Saul (and Barnabas) were called to be separated out. They had hands laid on them and they were Apostles (as identified in Acts 14).
Yes, according to the Bible, Paul was an Apostle.
So Paul is a self proclaimed apostle? |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 05/18/2011 : 11:54:43
So the fact that the others called Paul an Apostle in the Bible is not good enough? You need a date and a certificate from Jesus?
Jesus selected Paul on the road to Damascus and SENT him to become part of the Church. The details were not specific that Paul was appointed, but that Fact was made very clear in the New Testament.
Even Paul confirms this in his letters (not an exhaustive list, but some examples):
Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
Since Paul views this apostleship as being by command of Christ and not just acceptance by men as an apostle, then he is either lying, or Jesus did appoint him as an Apostle.
Luke recognized Paul as an Apostle:
Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
Saul was called in Acts 9, and in Acts 13, the Holy Spirit indicates that Saul (and Barnabas) were called to be separated out. They had hands laid on them and they were Apostles (as identified in Acts 14).
Yes, according to the Bible, Paul was an Apostle. |
| SolaChristo |
Posted - 05/18/2011 : 08:55:58
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The authority to forgive and retain sins was specifically given to the Apostles. Read it yourself - He breathed on them first and granted them special authority.
We, all of us, are required to forgive others who have sinned against us, but we are not granted the privilege of retaining sins. On the matter of lay people, Jesus said that if we don't forgive others who have sinned against us, God will not forgive us our own sins.
But to the Apostles a special authority is granted that is not given to us. Paul exercises this authority in the Bible. It would not have been necessary for him to do this if anyone could.
Show me in the bible where Paul is made an apostle. |
| Faith_at_Large |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 19:09:27
The authority to forgive and retain sins was specifically given to the Apostles. Read it yourself - He breathed on them first and granted them special authority.
We, all of us, are required to forgive others who have sinned against us, but we are not granted the privilege of retaining sins. On the matter of lay people, Jesus said that if we don't forgive others who have sinned against us, God will not forgive us our own sins.
But to the Apostles a special authority is granted that is not given to us. Paul exercises this authority in the Bible. It would not have been necessary for him to do this if anyone could. |
| baby3 |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 15:55:23
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The point is that the priesthood has an enormous responsibility. And it is important to remember that to whom much is given, much is expected.
It is not that the priests are more powerful or more authoritative than God, but rather that God gave them enormous authority.
The power to bind and loose was previously given to those who sat in Moses Seat, and this power was considerable.
Whatsoever Peter bound on earth was also ratified/bound in Heaven. He spoke WITH God's authority. Of course, I also believe that the Holy Spirit would not allow Peter or any of his successors to bind anything that God would not approve of.
Whatsoever Peter loosed on earth was also loosed in Heaven. That is enormous power. Protestants don't like to hear that, but I am also sure that there were many who objected when they were told that they had to obey those who sat on Moses seat.
Matthew 23:1-3 1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Even though they were not perfect and did things that they should not do, Jesus said that they had to be obeyed regardless. This authority was transferred with the Keys to the Kingdom to Peter, and also to the other apostles.
Jesus also bestowed upon the Apostles the authority to forgiven or retain sins. John 20:22-23. This was and remains enormous authority. Only God can forgive sins, but this authority was granted to men.
 I re-read this and i want to say that Jesus granted it to ALL MEN AND WOMAN, because if you do not forgive any one that has hurt you they will go to the grave with this sin and will stand before God on it, but if you release it to God then it is forgiven. Only the one who holds it in their heart can release this for the other person, so you see we all have the power to forgive people for their sins or bind it with God. That is why God says"Send the murderer to me" He takes care of those who die in horror of another and he judges them but we put them in prisons and they get out and become worst then what they were, and kill over again until they are caught all over. Allot of money for the murderer and the one that dies their family gets the bills.That stinks, if we had the death penalty more in Hannis crimes they would think twice about who they were going to hurt, but we do not do what God tells us, and the innocent suffer because of the sinners sins. B 3
Paul exercised this authority "in the person of Christ" (2 Corinthians 2:10). We use this phrase even to this day. In Latin it comes out as "in persona Christi" anytime a priest/presbyter is acting on Christ's behalf. In this way we understand that it is not the priest's personal authority, but Christ's authority in which anything is done.
Even during the Mass, during the consecration which is covered in OP post, the priest is not acting on his own, but in the Person of Christ, who is our High Priest.
I suspect that St. John Vianney may have used stronger words to deal with problems that are not readily seen from our current vantage point; however, I agree that if a priest truly understood what he was actually doing and why, he could not help but be humbled and feel enormously unworthy. I have met a few like this, but many more who don't seem to get it.
Jesus did not give this authority lightly. But it wasn't the first time anything like this had ever been done.
It was commonplace in the OT times, for kings (pharaohs, emperors, etc.) to appoint servants who would wield this level of authority on an earthly scale - Joseph who served under Pharaoh in the OT (remember that story?) wore Pharaoh's ring, and could command almost anything. The Pharaoh still owned both the ring and the ultimate authority in his kingdom, but he trusted Joseph to do what was necessary for the sake of the kingdom.
Jewish Kings used a key or keys that were worn upon the shoulder or hung from the belt for the same purpose as the ring that Pharaohs used (see Isaiah 22:22).
Jesus IS our King. And like all kings, He has a royal court to govern the day to day affairs of the Kingdom.
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