en-us Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:47:08 +0200 forum@oxle.com 60 Spero Forum - Baptist, Protestant, and Catholic Discussion http://www.speroforum.com/forum/ Spero Forum - Baptist, Protestant, and Catholic Discussion http://www.speroforum.com/forum/http://www.speroforum.com http://www.speroforum.com/forum/images/oxlerss.gif Spero Forum - Baptist, Protestant, and Catholic Discussion RSS Feed 144 47 "Jesus Myth" Velarius @ Spero Forum http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=6521&REPLY_ID=125047 General Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:46:47 +0200 http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6521 Quote:
Atheism and Protestantism are nothing alike. Just because you feel that they have one thing in common doesn't make them very much like each other at all. A similar comparison could be achieved by using blood on your French fries because after all ... they are both red right .... [;)]]]> andrew wommack what you think? michael @ Spero Forum http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=6529&REPLY_ID=125045 Religious and Biblical Theology Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:15:38 +0200 http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6529 Quote:
Andrew Wommack is a man. If Andrew Wommack is not a man what is he? What happens when he dies are we supposed to pass on his teachings via Tradition.

Are we supposed to follow everything he Andrew Wommack teaches to the letter or are we supposed pick & choose like heretics.]]> How long does God keep forgiving your sins? lacy-1 @ Spero Forum http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=6524&REPLY_ID=125046 General Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:49:34 +0200 http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6524 Quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus

God will forgive you as long as you demonstrate true remorse for your sins and a firm purpose of amending your life. He never fails to forgive those who sincerely seek His mercy.

He will do this until the day you die. Once you die, there is an immediate judgment about the state of your soul. You can't repent after death for sins you commit in this life.

The issue here is that you really have to commit to not sin again. Even if you do. What you cannot do is ask His forgiveness knowing that you want to turn around and do the same thing again. You have to truly desire not to sin again.



Without repentence there is NO forgivness of sins. So those who are going to hell are those who don't ask, dont believe, and don.t repent, Right? lacy-1]]> The Genesis Scare? lacy-1 @ Spero Forum http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=6532&REPLY_ID=125044 General Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:45:57 +0200 http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6532 Quote:
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli

[quote]Now, if these "sons of God" were humans then how was it that they didn't notice women until then?


it doesn't say they noticed women but that they notices daughters of men... that could mean a lot of things... some think that it refers to men in seths lineage sleeping with the women from cains lineage...

the term sons of god is used in several ways through scripture... if angels are said to be neuter then there is no way that genesis could be talking about angels unless it has a symbolic meaning.

mike
[/quot


Mikejuli, it cannot mean alot of things, if we are on the SAME PAGE, wHAT BIBLE DO YOU USE? you do know that the bible has been interperted in alot of versions and it has lost alot of meaning. I find. I read the KJV it is the most accurate and best. If you look up Psalms 94:20-21 in KJV and then in your new books, you will find it differnt. I alway's use this for abortion but it only serves me purpose in KJV, and what it say's i believe! lacy-1]]> How old was Adam when he was born? lacy-1 @ Spero Forum http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=6530&REPLY_ID=125042 General Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:33:43 +0200 http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6530 Quote:
That name is a real name Mikejuli, i just looked it up.lacy-1]]> why did the law have to be finished? Faith_at_Large @ Spero Forum http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=6525&REPLY_ID=125027 General Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:21:35 +0200 http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6525 Quote:
Lacy-1, I just wanted to say that I am glad that you are going back to Church, and that you realize that the Catholic Church is the one that Christ founded. There is a lot that is frightening in the world today, but keeping our trust in Jesus and His Church makes things a lot easier. I do not worry so much because I know all is in God's Hands.

Acumen, the passage said that "if it were possible" (Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22) with respect to deceiving or seducing the elect. We still need to be on our toes, but I like to think that the elect will be fine - of course none of us knows for certain who the elect are.

The only thing that is certain is that the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. For this reason, I stick with The Church and not just any old denomination.]]> What is the origin of the roman catholic Church? Faith_at_Large @ Spero Forum http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=6519&REPLY_ID=125026 General Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:11:54 +0200 http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6519 Quote:
quote:
Originally posted by TheSword

Every Christian faith believes it's church came straight from Jesus and the apostles on the day of Pentecost. However, the Baptist faith did not come out of the Reformation. Therefore it is not a Protestant faith. From the very beginning of Christianity there were bands of Christians everywhere who had different names, or no names at all. They gathered to worship, sing and break bread. These groups make up the Baptist faith today.


There were some bands of Christians mentioned in the scriptures, in Acts 19 Paul found some and discovered that they had not received the Holy Ghost as they had only known the Baptism of John and not a proper Christian Baptism. He, Paul, gave them the Holy Spirit through the laying on of His hands in baptism.

Those who were not part of the original Church, did not know to be Baptized into Christ and needed to be properly instructed by members of the Church. Christians such as these, also did not have access to the New Testament scriptures as these were all hand copied and distributed to the known churches that were associated with the larger Catholic Church.

The early Christian Church was known as the "Catholic" Church before the end of the first century AD, and was known by this term because this Church was open to the Gentiles (all nations) and not just the Jews.

Jesus also affirmed that there were some that were not of His Fold (the Church) (John 10:16) and that it was necessary that they be brought into the Fold - as the Good Shepherd, Jesus would lead them home to the Fold and not leave them stranded by themselves.

One thing that is very clear in the Book of Acts and in the Epistles is that the local churches were not separate from the governing body of The Church. The Apostles worked hard to keep all the churches united as a single Assembly of believers - all holding to the same doctrines, and all having the benefit of instruction and documents shared throughout the whole of the Church.

Those Christians who remained separate from the Catholic Church, were often heretics who refused to listen to their Shepherd's Voice. Following after their own interests and private interpretations.

It has always been God's plan that we be ONE.]]> past present and futures sins forgiven VS Penance jdubya @ Spero Forum http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=6518&REPLY_ID=125023 Religious and Biblical Theology Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:28:37 +0200 http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6518 Quote:
quote:
Originally posted by thunderson


jdubya, the argument of once saved always saved is ongoing and i have had it many times, and in fairness there seems to be a lot of ammunition on both sides..i dont think your interpretation of the use of the word hope applies exactly...or the word qualified, where the kjv is actually the word "meet"...or "fit"..which does not imply that we are made fit or qualified, but then not guaranteed

We call this sanctifying grace. If you don't have it you can not breathe the air of heaven. If you died at this point, you would have a guarantee, but that doesn't imply that you will remain in this state. Indeed in the same passage, starting in verse 21, Paul makes it conditional upon continuing in the faith steadfast in order to be presented blameless. Then in verse 24, Paul shows us that we must cooperate with grace; our part in filling up that which is lacking in the afflictions of Christ. We know that Christ did His part perfectly, so this can only mean that we are expected to respond to grace. If its already a done deal, Paul is either wrong or issuing a hollow threat.
Can one be presented not holy and not blameless to the Father? This is not the only time we see such clear language in scripture. This cannot be explained away by loss of fellowship or rewards which seems to be a blanket to dismiss similar passages.

quote:
Originally posted by thunderson

...the Holy Spirit as the ernest of the promise, as im sure you know, down payment money was called ernest money throughout many years...when the Holy Spirit is given, its our ernest promise from God himself that he will finish this transaction in full redemption..we are capable of breaking our word and deals, but not the Lord


The Lord will not break a promise. It is impossible for Him to to so, but if we deny Him, he will deny us. Rather, he will respect our free will to continue to choose Him or reject Him.

quote:
Originally posted by thunderson

...as we discussed before, because of bad behaviour, this can end tragically even to the point of a person being turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, yet the soul saved...


I do not read that passage and the follow up the way you do. I certainly doesn't say that his soul will be saved. We're not talking about wood, hay and stubble here, but a sin of fornication with the man's father's wife. Something that Paul repeatedly says will keep a man out of heaven, and he makes no distinction between "believers" and unbelievers.

1Cor 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The purpose of this excommunication is so that his spirit might be saved in the end. How can this in any way be telling us that his spirit is already saved? It clearly no longer is if he is removed for the purpose of getting his spirit saved.
The good news is that this man did realize his shame, repented to the church and was then also forgiven by Paul in the person, presence or face of Christ. He then was restored to the church.
Another thing that I don't see in the bible is this idea that loosing fellowship is somehow not related to salvation. When you are removed from the church, you are removed from the body of Christ and are no longer in Christ. If you are not in Christ, you will not have eternal life. This man made himself a member of, one flesh with a harlot. A Christian is one who is a member of Christ. One cannot be both.

quote:
Originally posted by thunderson

if im wrong and we can do something drastic enough to actually separate us from the love of Christ, then i believe we would be lost forever...no in out in out in out....the cleansing of sin in 1John, is not a cleansing to preserve salvation, but to preserve fellowship and prevent the establishment of strongholds and being desentized to the deception of sin


If we follow our own desires or rely on our own natural goodness or abilities, we don't have a chance. But, if we truly trust in Christ and allow Him to work in us with the supernatural gifts of faith, hope and charity, everything will work out for the Glory of God. I am reminded of this passage:

Phlp 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning,
15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

Note that we don't think this means to work for our salvation, but rely on God who works through us and in us.

As far as the passage in 1John 1, I'm sure you won't be surprised when I say that I don't agree with your interpretation.
It says when we walk in the Light, we have fellowship with one another and that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. Now this would not make a lot of sense to say that if we don't walk in the Light and don't have fellowship, the blood of Jesus still cleanses us from all sin. I would be interested to see how you come to your conclusion on that passage.

quote:
Originally posted by thunderson

...i would never argue against repentance for many reasons and scriptures, its obviously in the Lord's prayer, but if we are performing all kinds of works to hold our salvation, then its part Christ and part us...logically, that makes sense, but i dont think its the truth from the scriptures...i think the loss from sin and bad behaviour will be a loss of reward, which is really not discussed or thought about much because we are so focused on just making it to heaven, instead of truly trusting Christ sacrifice as sufficient.

What does it mean to trust in Christ? I trust in Him fully because there is no other name by which we will be saved. He is the first cause and source of everything. It is only by the grace of God that I can trust in Jesus and what he has done for me. If we rely on our natural abilities to even trust or believe, it will be futility.

I know the Schofield bible notes, explained away all passages that speak of condemnation and reprobation as simply loosing rewards and many Protestant commentaries followed suit. Can you loose something that you never had? Do we start with a full plate of rewards from the minute we are saved and then start dropping crowns and thrones one by one? The greatest reward is heaven itself which the bible indeed calls a prize and a reward.

You seem not to have a good understanding of the difference between works of debt (seeking payment for services rendered) and works of charity done in a gracious relationship with God. These are his gifts to us, not to be seen as a burden, but a privelege.]]> Giving to your church lacy-1 @ Spero Forum http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=6516&REPLY_ID=125011 General Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:48:36 +0200 http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6516 Quote:
You know it is right to give to the church, but what are they going to do when no one can give any more because of famine and loss of work ETC? By the way did you know the church has stocks and large bank accounts? They are not poor even the priests have bank accounts and invest. Honest! lacy-1


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]]> why did Paul want woman to cover their heads? lacy-1 @ Spero Forum http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=6517&REPLY_ID=125009 General Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:35:24 +0200 http://www.speroforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6517 Quote:
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli

A russian orthodox woman i knew in alaska once told me that the reason they wear head coverings to is remind them "why the hell did i get married?" In their culture, which is actually a sect of the orthodox who call themselves the old believers, married women wear head coverings.. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the tradition in the church too, but i likes her answer.

as for paul it's hard to say. i mean it may be just a part of the ancient culture like in todays culture it's taboo for a woman to not wear a shirt. maybe in another thousand years women will not be wearing shirt and men will have to have a garment covering their chest.. but apart from that i think there is a special meaning that is somehow tied in with the idea of christ and his bride, the church. maybe it was easy to draw certain images from culture that seemed to "picture" an idea presented in the gospel. first would be that a woman with a head covering would be understood to be married, a head covering hides or veils, the hair, or face so that there is mystery or hidden-ness something specific and special.

mike



Good answer mikejuli, but i think he was jealous of their hair cause he was balled, and he couldn't stand to look at their beautiful hair. lacy-1[:0]]]>