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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

The funny thing is that the position that Mary was not conceived without sin would make Jesus a sinner.

When Jesus condemned man-made Traditions, the NUMBER ONE tradition that He BUSTED was the tradition whereby men could get out of honouring their parents by making a Temple donation (Corban).

Jesus had the ability to preserve His own mother from sin before she was even born. To have this ability and NOT do it, would be a lack of honour for His mother and that would make Jesus a greater sinner than the Pharisees He condemned.

No one ever suggested that Mary preserved herself from sin. The was made sinless by her own efforts or that she saved herself. On the contrary. Nothing Catholics teach about Mary would even be remotely possible were it not for her very special SON who knew her before she was formed in the womb.

It is BECAUSE of who her Son was, that we believe what we do about Mary. I could not say the same thing about my own mother, because I do not have it within my power to do what Jesus could do.

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Originally posted by hitchs

Thank you, heavenlysecrets, for clarifying this matter. I have been worried about the ridiculous St Gertrude "promise" for a long time. And it is everywhere. The references to it on the net are numerous, and mostly uncritical. One website even boasts that you can release over 60 souls a second by saying this prayer.

It is good to know that Cardinal Pahiarca does not exist. My guess is that the "name" is a misspelling of Cardinal Patriarcha, which means Cardinal Patriarch, the official title of the Archbishop of Venice.

The official 1968 Inchiridion (i.e. manual) of Indulgences says that a plenary indulgence (i.e. one soul released from Purgatory) can be gained once a year by visiting a church and saying prayers (including one Our Father and one Creed). What a joke this and the whole doctrine of indulgences would be if we could release 60 souls a second by saying one little prayer - no effort at all.

It is a pity, however, that it takes so long to find out the official answer to this problem, and a pity that there does not seem to be a specific prohibition of the St Gertrude "promise", which appears to be the big problem at the moment.

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Originally posted by mikejuli

Yes, and lying, whining, accusing, pretending to speak in tongues, bearing false witness, being a legalistic prig, and pretending to be god by deciding who is going to hell are not fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry g4 but you have no love.

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