The teams studied the nature of conversion together, working their way through the New Testament and patristic material, but they were also greatly helped by reviewing the current understanding of conversion in the Lex Orandi, the current, normative experience of the Church. This was done through an extended discussion of the Roman Catholic “Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults” [hereafter: RCIA], a practice that has been retrieved as part of the liturgical renewal mandated by the Second Vatican Council and is in widespread usage in many Roman Catholic congregations.

The Pentecostals on the team were very pleased with this discussion and concluded that this rite holds considerable possibility for agreement, not only on the nature of baptism, but also for their understanding of conversion [¶49]. In fact, the Pentecostal team was so much in agreement on the benefits of the RCIA that they strongly encouraged the Roman Catholics to adopt the RCIA “on a much wider scale” [¶52]. They pointed to the fact that even though the RCIA has been approved and is broadly available, the majority of Roman Catholics continue to practice infant baptism. They viewed this as a failure in current practice to commit to this newer way of thinking, and as such they pressed the Roman Catholics to make broader use of the RCIA while lessening the practice of infant baptism. They believed that it is much more likely for an adult who had submitted to the call to conversion and subsequent teaching in the RCIA [¶52] to remain a faithful Christian than it is for a person baptized as an infant and subjected to some form of child catechesis to do so.

The challenge that the Pentecostal team gave to the Roman Catholics over the RCIA led to further discussion on whether the RCIA might, in fact, provide the necessary corrective to nominal practice among many Roman Catholics, as well as to the notion of a nominal form of cultural Catholicism. The Roman Catholic team responded by linking the notion of conversion and the notion of a Christian or, more specifically, a Roman Catholic culture. The Roman Catholics admitted that “a superficially Catholic culture might include pastoral situations in which individuals with no discernible faith, virtually no connection to the Church, and no commitment to active practice, approach the Church requesting sacraments merely for extrinsic reasons”. They went on to acknowledge that “the existence of such nominal practice both in previous centuries and the present day,” but they also made it clear that beside this nominal Catholicism there was an “ongoing genuine conversion and vital Catholic life” [¶55].

While the nominal behavior of many baptized and catechized Roman Catholics and their reliance upon cultural Christianity may be more evident among Roman Catholics than it is among Pentecostals, it is clear that the Pentecostal Movement is not immune from such things. As a result, both teams agreed that the Gospel has had a transformative role when it has come into contact with both pagan and secular societies over the centuries to such an extent that at times these societies have “embodied a profoundly Christian worldview.”

[...]

In spite of the longstanding Roman Catholic commitment to the validity of infant baptism, this discussion of the RCIA within Roman Catholic circles and the challenge that Pentecostals made regarding its wider adoption led to some rather remarkable conclusions that demonstrate how close Pentecostals and Catholics are on the subject of conversion.

Catholics and Pentecostals generally agree that conversion involves both event and process, and recognize the need for ongoing formation. Both hold to a diversity of ways in which one is converted. Conversions may express varying characteristics, some more affectively oriented than others, some more cognitive, dramatic or volitional. Both recognize different levels of conversion, and conversion in stages (i.e. second and third conversions in the spiritual life for Catholics, or personal re-dedications for Pentecostals), as examples of the ongoing process. Manifestations of conversions are also recognized in their diversity. One may give evidence of conversion through either word or service, depending upon gifts and calling. Catholics and Pentecostals also recognize diversity in the ways evangelization takes place.

Frank Schaeffer: A Crisis of Faith - The Religious Right's Wayward Son

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by mikejuli

the annointing is a churchy. at least when modern heretics use it as a tool to convince crowds of ignorants that they are wearing the emporers new robes. if that doesn't work then they resort to manipulation like they did to me... wispering in my ear, telling me i was missing out. the real annointing has nothing to do with rodney brown, benny hill, or the evengelical mindwarp churchys that you are involved with evan. the real annointing has to be able to be known by the poor as well as the rich or middle class, by the 3rd world as well as the top countries. what the modern sects have done is take a word from the bible, redifine it so that they can make money off of it, and luckily they found a lot of ignorant christians who cannot understand faith unless they see.
mike

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The anointing is really this Mike!

Ac:1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

1Jo:2:26: These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jo:2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

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That is why your RCC churchy can'r decieve me!

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Derren Brown - Devil in Disguise

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I am not defending Derren Brown, or occult forms of “hypnotism”, but at the same time by calling him a spiritualist you not only discredit your research but you also fail to get what he is pointing out and showing up. The power of yes - the mind and the flesh - the power of suggestion and cheap parlour tricks and clever camera works. Without spirits or demons necessarily being involved anywhere.

As to Brown not being a Christian because he is currently fallen away. This may be true. He says he was deeply involved in the born again pentecostal for some years from teen to mid 20s. I merely repeat his testimony, and actually I understand it and sympathise. He saw the hypocrisy, small mindedness and sleight of hand in the church and rejected it for that’s all there was there, and isn’t that true of many a church - take away the stage show and backbiting what’s left? He strikes me as a deeply intelligent man searching for truth who will not tolerate BS. I respect that - deeply. It is sad that he rejected Jesus along with the church and its people, but I understand this only too well.

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Originally posted by SolaChristo

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Originally posted by mikejuli

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Originally posted by Theophilus

Good point, Mike. What would make one an "orthodox Christian?"

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to this i would say several things. baptism, as an entry point. if baptism is refused then i don't see how one could be considered a 'christian'. second would be confession of the creed.. as this is an agreement to the trinitarian belief held by the church. i do believe that one could believe the creed without knowing or reciting it for example many evangelicals have probably never read the creeds but believe in the trinity. whether a person is more mystical, relational or doctrinal doesn't really matter to me because i believe this is all the same thing just undterstood by different personalities. the last thing i would say is an understanding of sacramentalism as this is another thing that set the orthodox apart from the gnostics, the belief that god works through the physical with grace.

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Can a person be a Christian and not believe in in the Trinity?

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Evangelist, were it not for the Church, I could not possibly rely upon the scriptures.

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So you put the church befoe the scriptures FAL?
That to me is like putting the cart before the horses.[:0]

It is the same I can't and would never put my church membership before my personal relationship with Christ.

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