Call NO MAN Father?
-
-
First Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 09/04/2002
Location: USA
THis is a new thread regarding the questions that neweyes has asked... quote:
Originally posted by neweyes
quote:
Originally posted by AbidingNHim
[quote]Did Protestants change the Word of God by saying that He really didn't mean what He said. Tell me, how DOES a non-Catholic EAT CHRIST'S FLESH WHICH IS REAL FOOD and DRINK HIS BLOOD WHICH IS REAL DRINK?
What about Christ's command not to call anyone Father? Did He not really mean it? Seems to me the Word was changed by the "Fathers" to make it okay to call them Fathers.
Great questions, neweyes. Do you have an earthly father? Do you call him father? or dad (it means the same thing)? For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, Eph 3:14-15 (RSV) ... now I know WHY we call our fathers (our dads, papas, pops) "father" ... it's biblical, apparently. 1 And the high priest said, "Is this so?" 2 And Stephen said: "Brethren and fathers, hear me. Acts 7:1-2 (RSV) ... was Stephen already sinning, calling some of these "brethren" father? 13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father. 14 I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. 1 John 2:12-14 (RSV) . . . who ARE these fathers that St. John is writing to? Is St. John teaching iincorrectly by calling these people "father"? 14 I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me. 1 Cor 4:14-16 (RSV) . . . and Paul CLAIMS that HE is OUR "father" IN CHRIST? Is this blasphemy? I don't believe it is? Is Paul sinning? I don't think so. Below, from One of my very favorite Catholic resources, I have listed all of the reasons WHY WE DO have fathers, and why we don't call them Father (as in God), but "father" as in our earthly leaders in Christ (like Paul said). I. The Elders of the Church are Called "Fathers" and the Faithful "Children"Matt. 23:9 - Jesus says, "call no man father." But Protestants use this verse in an attempt to prove that it is wrong for Catholics to call priests "father." This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus simply means not to elevate our earthly fathers to the level of our heavenly Father. Judges 18:10 - priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means "communicating one's nature," and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example. Eph. 3:14-15 - every family in heaven and on earth is named from the "Father." We are fathers in the Father. Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 - elders of the Church are called "fathers." Therefore, we
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 09/04/2002
Location: USA
Then, neweyes responded ... quote:
Originally posted by neweyes
Each time I've ever asked a Catholic about this Father verse, they've ALL said the same thing: "You call your dad father, don't you?" Of course, but you don't really think Jesus was telling us not to call our dads "fathers," do you? If that's how the Church would interpret such a thing, then the popes would have decreed that no one must ever call their dads father ever!
Jesus never said do not call your earthly dad father. The verses you quoted from the Bible do not speak to the issue of calling priests fathers.
An example: (The King James version is close to yours) 12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. 13 I write unto you, fathers, (I interject: not priests, but heads of households) because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. 15
When did priests first get the title Father? With a capital F no less? Peter was never called Father Peter, was he? Someone had to have been the first in history. But whom?
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 09/04/2002
Location: USA
Then I responded ...
quote:
Each time I've ever asked a Catholic about this Father verse, they've ALL said the same thing: "You call your dad father, don't you?" Of course, but you don't really think Jesus was telling us not to call our dads "fathers," do you?
no I don't. Why do you think that ALL Israelites called Abraham "their father"?
No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. Gen 17:5 (RSV)
I'll bet they all called Abraham ... Father Abraham, and not "father Abraham"! For BY GOD, He was made the FATHER OF A MULTITUDE OF NATIONS! A pretty distinguished "title" of HONOR, wouldn't you say?
quote:
When did priests first get the title Father? With a capital F no less? Peter was never called Father Peter, was he? Someone had to have been the first in history. But whom?
would it make you happier if we called Mr. Bush, the President of the United Stated, "mr. Bush". Does this REALLY change his position and his authority or who he is? No, I don't think so. BUT, if you want to get nit-picky, then do so if it makes you happier.
quote:
If that's how the Church would interpret such a thing, then the popes would have decreed that no one must ever call their dads father ever!
no, Amy, that is not how the Church has decreed ... to never call their dads father. Give me a break. This is the very minimalist viewpoint of this phrase... you're trying so desperately to fine SOMETHING wrong with WHY we Catholics call our priests/pastors "father". I'll try to explain, and if you really want to understand, they try to understand instead of pick it apart.
quote:
The verses you quoted from the Bible do not speak to the issue of calling priests fathers.
Please read from Catholic Answers what I fail to convey to you.
I believe that Protestants refer to these books with the teachings in them ... are they as guilty as you impose of Catholics calling "men" of the Church "Fathers"? What about in THIS resource. Same thing...these Protestants look to the Early Church "F"athers. What about THIS "Christian" SOURCE? And THIS ONE? And lastly, what about THIS source, a Christian (not Catholic) resource? all depicting the teachings of the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS. They ALL USE capital "F", no doubt.
Call No Man "Father"???
Many Protestants claim that when Catholics address priests as "father," they are engaging in an unbiblical practice that Jesus forbade: "Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven" (Matt. 23:9).
In his tract 10 Reasons Why I Am Not a Roman Catholic, Fundamentalist anti-Catholic writer Donald Maconaghie quotes this passage as support for his charge that "the papacy is a hoax."
Bill Jackson, another Fundamentalist w
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 09/04/2002
Location: USA
and again I responded to her statement that JESUS TOLD US NOT TO CALL ANYONE FATHER!
quote:
Originally posted by AbidingNHim
Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 - elders of the Church are called "fathers." Therefore, we should ask the question, "Why don't Protestants call their pastors "father?"
AMY ... Because Jesus told us NOT to!!!!!!!!!!
15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 (RSV)hmmmmmmm.... [- -] Then are you saying that PAUL is being disobedient to Jesus Christ, and claiming something that he NEVER SHOULD HAVE? Being OUR FATHER IN CHRIST JESUS through the Gospel?
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 09/04/2002
Location: USA
NOW, we can continue with this discussion at hand and leave the other thread to "Did Catholics Change the Word of God?" [- -]
-
-
Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 06/03/2003
quote:
Originally posted by AbidingNHim
15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 (RSV)hmmmmmmm.... [- -]
[/quote]
My King James Version says: 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
I see where you are very passionate about this. I am not trying to put you down--these are very huge issues for me as well! So, for a non-catholic to call a pastor Father feels wrong because it is wrong to us. He is a spiritual leader, but not a spiritual father.
No, we don't want to elevate our earthly fathers to the Heavenly Father. Priests have been elevated though, in the eyes of many Catholics. I have seen and heard this for myself through personal experience. For those people, priests have powers the rest of us mere mortals don't: to forgive sins, turn bread and wine into flesh and blood, and so on. You might say, "well, God does that.." but the fact is, many in your parish would say that the priest does it. My own relatives know for certain that priests are elevated in that sense. When they call him Father Bob, they mean it. Do you know what I am talking about? Can you understand what I have seen and heard? Do you know fellow Catholics--perhaps the older ones, who feel this way about their priests?
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 09/04/2002
Location: USA
quote:
My King James Version says: 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
The KJV is NOT the only version of the bible...let's look at what MANY versions say of this verse in particular.
15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 (RSV)
15 Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 (NAB)
15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 (NASB)
15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 (NASB77)
15 For though you may have ten thousand teachers in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Through the Good News I became your father in Christ Jesus, 1 Cor 4:15 (NCV)
15 For though you may have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, because I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:14-15 (NET)
15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 (NIV)
15 For even if you had ten thousand others to teach you about Christ, you have only one spiritual father. For I became your father in Christ Jesus when I preached the Good News to you. 1 Cor 4:15 (NLT)
15 For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 (NRSV)
15 There are a lot of people around who can't wait to tell you what you've done wrong, but there aren't many fathers willing to take the time and effort to help you grow up. It was as Jesus helped me proclaim God's Message to you that I became your father. 1 Cor 4:15 (MSG)
15 For even if you had ten thousand teachers in Christ, you have not more than one father: for in Christ Jesus I have given birth to you through the good news. 1 Cor 4:14-15 (BBE) I thought this one interesting (i.e. giving birth = mother & father)
Interestingly enough, ALL of the above verses use the words "I became your father", YET ONLY the KJV and the NKJV change the wording (see below0. And wasn't the KJV a product of Martin Luther around the 1600? I thought that THIS was interesting regarding the KJV (note that the "Apocrapha" or what we Catholics call the "Deuterocanonicals" are included in this version.
So, now when looking at the KJV and the NKJV, the wording is quite different from ALL of the others. Wonder why?
15 For though ye have ten thousan
Edited by AbidingNHim on 01/15/2004 15:28:56
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 05/10/2002
Location: USA
Amy,
quote:
Originally posted by neweyes
My King James Version says: 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
So you would acknowledge that the Scripture leaves room for calling someone our spiritual father?
Your original question concerned the Church 'Fathers'. Which virtually all Protestants as well as Catholics have no problem with. Is this still a problem for you, or has your concern now moved to Catholic priests?
I think it has been shown that to take a hyper-literal stand gets crazy very quickly - and the fact that Jesus as well as the New Testament writers clearly called men 'father' should resolve this fairly easily. So, now, the question (like the one of images) becomes one of degrees. Protestants have no trouble with calling their spiritual leaders 'Pastor' or 'Doctor' - which would also be in violation of a strict interpretation.
quote:
I see where you are very passionate about this. I am not trying to put you down--these are very huge issues for me as well! So, for a non-catholic to call a pastor Father feels wrong because it is wrong to us. He is a spiritual leader, but not a spiritual father.
Are you sure about that last part? As a non-denom it was very common for us to refer to mentors as 'spiritual fathers in the Lord.' But, it needs to be acknowledged that we didn't see them as 'father' in the Catholic sense.
quote:
No, we don't want to elevate our earthly fathers to the Heavenly Father. Priests have been elevated though, in the eyes of many Catholics. I have seen and heard this for myself through personal experience. For those people, priests have powers the rest of us mere mortals don't: to forgive sins, turn bread and wine into flesh and blood, and so on. You might say, "well, God does that.." but the fact is, many in your parish would say that the priest does it. My own relatives know for certain that priests are elevated in that sense. When they call him Father Bob, they mean it. Do you know what I am talking about? Can you understand what I have seen and heard? Do you know fellow Catholics--perhaps the older ones, who feel this way about their priests?
This is a fair distinction. We, as Catholics, do give honor to our priests in ways that are much more reverent than what is common among Evangelicals. Part of this is a cultural thing. We Americans are not known for reverencing our leaders! But, the Catholic Church has 2,000 yrs worth of values and traditions - many of these are Eastern in origin. I have shown on other threads how our Jewish patriarchs would venerate the relics of their ancestors and bow before each other in deep respect and reverence - especially to the 'papa' of the family or tribe. Much of Catholic thought has it's origins in these ancient customs. Since Evangelicalism is largely a Christianity for the culture they live in, they tend to take on the flavor of their surrounding culture - which may have little or no awareness of these customs or practices.
These are some of the things I remind myself of - since I was not raised Catholic, nor are these things first nature to me, by any means, I do see how they would be disconcerting to you.
Blessings.
-
-
Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 06/03/2003
Thanks for both of your answers. Yes, I am still seeking and asking in the Catholic path--but these (the Father, Mary, communion, etc.) remain the stumbling blocks for me. I appreciate what you've both said.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 09/04/2002
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by neweyes
Thanks for both of your answers. Yes, I am still seeking and asking in the Catholic path--but these (the Father, Mary, communion, etc.) remain the stumbling blocks for me. I appreciate what you've both said.
You're so welcome.  I desire to help you in any way that I can. I understand your "stumbling blocks", as I once had these same blocks too, but maybe not so "ingrained" as evil.
Please start any threads asking whatever questions that you might have, because it is my deep desire to help anyone who is seeking...this has been my deep desire of the past couple of years. I hope that whatever I can share will help you in your journey.
-
-
Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 06/03/2003
Thanks! Okay here is a question--probably a dumb one to folks here, but--why call priests Father at all, if it causes some people to have concern? Secondly, how did this practice first begin? You gave reasons why it's not a bad thing to call a priest Father, so how did this begin in the early history of the Church?
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 09/04/2002
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by neweyes
Thanks! Okay here is a question--probably a dumb one to folks here, but--
You're welcome, Amy. And NO question is a dumb one to any folks here, be assured of that!
quote:
why call priests Father at all, if it causes some people to have concern?
why do you call your pastor "pastor"? Or minister "minister"?
6 but you shall be called the priests of the LORD,
men shall speak of you as the ministers of our God;
you shall eat the wealth of the nations,
and in their riches you shall glory. Isaiah 61:6 (RSV)
There are MANY websites that can explain this further. You see, the NEW Covenant is a fulfillment of the OLD Covenant. All in the OLD points to the BETTER in the New.
See Here regarding the Catholic Church in the Old Testament!
See Here regarding Types, Antitypes, Signs, and Shadows, which are ALL Absolutely Indespensable for proper Scriptural Interpretation.
quote:
Secondly, how did this practice first begin? . . . so how did this begin in the early history of the Church?
See HERE for full discussion regarding this. Also see HERE, and And See HERE ALSO, from Summa Theologica
I hope this will get you started.
Edited by AbidingNHim on 01/15/2004 19:35:31
-
-
Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/02/2003
For all those reading this thread, there is another one addressed the same which goes into it in great detail. Just search the in the history of the board.
-
-
Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/02/2003
-
-
Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 09/04/2003
Location: USA
During my IFB upbringing, we were told over and over that the Catholics were sinning because they called priest father and that was terrible.
However, we sang "Father Abraham had many sons. Many sons had father Abraham. I am one of them and so are you. So let's just praise the Lord."  We just addressed Abraham as father...hmmm...so does that mean that it's conditional who we can or cannot call father?
God is the Almighty Father and no human can be Abba. Only God!
However, when I call my parish priest Father Al, I am not elevating him to be equal with God. My biological father did not really give me any religious teaching or practical applications from the Bible. He took us to church and sent us to a Baptist school, but that was about it. Father Al is instructing me and guiding me spiritually to my Heavenly Father.
In Luke 14:16 Jesus tells us, "If any one comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." Does this mean we are to literally hate? We are also told that we are to love one another. Jesus is telling us that we cannot love anyone more than Him.
If we do not take this verse as literal, why do we take Matthew 23:9 as literal?
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 09/04/2002
Location: USA
AMEN, Lubellmac! I thank God for giving me, as well, a spiritual father (Fr. Craig)! He has so moved my life in the right direction! Thank you Jesus!
|
|
Subscribe by Email
RSS