Do Catholics "Worship" Mary?
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This is a situation that has always puzzled me. Catholics pray to Mary (and other saints). Prayer is a distinct form of worship, just as singing hymns is another distinct form of worship. so, based on this premise, I will keep it simple. Do Catholics worship Mary?
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quote:
Originally posted by Len
This is a situation that has always puzzled me. Catholics pray to Mary (and other saints). Prayer is a distinct form of worship, just as singing hymns is another distinct form of worship. so, based on this premise, I will keep it simple. Do Catholics worship Mary?
in a word, NO!
For the WHOLE story, see HERE!
Some non-Catholics make the false claim that Catholics worship the Blessed Virgin Mary.
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For this statement to be true, then the Church must be telling us to do this. Therefore, if the Church is telling us to do this, then it must be written somewhere in official Catholic Church documents.
I have repeatedly asked the people who make this false charge to please show me the official written Catholic document which directs us to WORSHIP the Blessed Virgin.
The only reply I have ever received to that request was a quote from the Papal Encyclical 'Lumen Gentium':
LG 50. "...The Church has always believed that the Apostles and Christ's martyrs, who gave the supreme witness of faith and charity by the shedding of their blood, are closely united with us in Christ; she has always VENERATED them, together with the Blessed Virgin Mary and the holy angels, with a special love, and has asked piously for the help of their intercession."
Now, where in this quote does it say that Catholics WORSHIP the Blessed Virgin Mary? The plain truth is that it does not say that unless you think to VENERATE someone, means to WORSHIP them.
The simple truth is that NOWHERE in Catholic literature will you ever find a document which directs Catholics to WORSHIP her. You will, however, find many documents which say we VENERATE her.
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Here is what the dictionary says regarding the words venerate and worship:
Venerate: "To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference."
One of the 10 Commandments is "Honor your Father and your Mother." Do you honor your father and mother? Do you respect them? These are the things Catholics do for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Worship: "The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object."
Do you worship your parents? Certainly not, and neither do Catholics worship theirs. However, it is perfectly alright to venerate them and for Catholics to venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary.
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I would say the two words have quite different meanings wouldn't you? Why then, do some people continue to make this false charge?
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I will ask again. Show me the official, authentic written Catholic document which directs Catholics to worship the Blessed Virgin Mary?
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quote:
Originally posted by Len
This is a situation that has always puzzled me. Catholics pray to Mary (and other saints). Prayer is a distinct form of worship, just as singing hymns is another distinct form of worship. so, based on this premise, I will keep it simple. Do Catholics worship Mary?
It's a false premise. We don't 'pray' to Saints in the Protestant sense of the word. Protestants do indeed see it as you have said, and thus, understandabley encounter a disconnect when it is assumed that is what is happening. Think of the more archaic use of the word 'pray'. 'I pray thee, would you do this for me?' The same goes for 'worship' - we would never mean it in the modern sense of the word - that kind of worship is for God alone. But, in the English courts, we may hear the judge addressed as 'Your Worship'.
As a side note - don't you think it's strange for a group to practice 'worshipping a statue' and then fiercely deny it? Imagine a Bhuddist or some other religion that worships goddesses and statues or the deity behind them - don't they usually admit it? And in fact are proud of it as part of their religion? And since being Catholic is not politically correct anyway, don't you think we would admit it if we thought Mary was a goddess or that we worshipped her or the saints?
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I was doing some light reading, and I believe that Lynne might be in error on one point. She asked for someone to show her the document that shows where a pope decreed for Catholics to worship Mary. The "infallible" Pope Pius IX proclaimed the doctrine of the "Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary," in 1854. In that official document, we find,
quote:
"Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God, conceived without original sin."
His words, not mine....
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I do exactly that, and your narrow meaning of the word worship doesn't see the full picture of what history has shown it to mean. Doesn't the word "worship" have three "types" of meanings...(but then again, maybe your light reading didn't take you this far)
As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (hyper [beyond]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is beyond the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.
All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.
Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."
Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.
Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term "worship," they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.
Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.
For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "‘[B]ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed a
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Lynne, thank you very much for your thought-provoking entry. I can see only one minor problem. The pope used the word "worship". He didn't qualify it with dulia or hyperdulia, but "worship" alone. Are Catholics permitted to "interpret" a pope's decree? If they are, then that could lead to any number of interesting scenarios. If they are not, then this pope directed Catholics to worship Mary.
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quote:
Originally posted by Len
Lynne, thank you very much for your thought-provoking entry. I can see only one minor problem. The pope used the word "worship". He didn't qualify it with dulia or hyperdulia, but "worship" alone. Are Catholics permitted to "interpret" a pope's decree? If they are, then that could lead to any number of interesting scenarios. If they are not, then this pope directed Catholics to worship Mary.
you are very desperate to find anything, something that will make you feel more secure and justified as to why you aren't in the Church in which Christ established. When I say, Len, that I love you, I don't love you with the "eros" love, but I love you with "filial" love, and I will strive to love you with "agape" love. I'll let you figure all those out, but I do say that I love you! Have a nice day. I will be away today. Love, Lynne
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quote:
Originally posted by Len
Lynne, thank you very much for your thought-provoking entry. I can see only one minor problem. The pope used the word "worship". He didn't qualify it with dulia or hyperdulia, but "worship" alone. Are Catholics permitted to "interpret" a pope's decree? If they are, then that could lead to any number of interesting scenarios. If they are not, then this pope directed Catholics to worship Mary.
Len,
Perhaps one has to be Catholic to understand this - but this is very basic, and out of all the Catholics I have ever talked to or read - both liberal, nominal and conservative, I have never heard of any Catholic who has not understood the distinction. (As a loyal Catholic, I would be obliged to correct them if they did.) In fact, to 'worhip' Mary in the sense of God has been condemned by the Church for more 1500 yrs. - It's basic.
Lynn said:
quote:
When I say, Len, that I love you, I don't love you with the "eros" love, but I love you with "filial" love, and I will strive to love you with "agape" love. I'll let you figure all those out, but I do say that I love you! Have a nice day. I will be away today. Love, Lynne
Do you get it, now?
Fundamentalists or those with an agenda look at Catholic documents and do what they do with Scripture - privately interpret them (usually ultra-literally) - use them in or out of context to fit their need.
If you are going to use Catholic documents, at least give Catholics the courtesy of telling you how they interpret them. Then, of course, you are free to disagree with what we actually believe.
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Len,
It might be helpful for you to learn Latin and Greek, read Papal documents in their original languages, and recognize the fact that there are multiple words in both Latin and Greek that are conveyed in one word in English.
The Pope didn't write these things in English, and it is very possible that the translation uses archaic English language to convey the Latin terms.
After all, English magistrates are even now referred to as "Your Worship," which doesn't mean they are gods, but that they are to be honored (like our calling judges "Your Honor)." That is the original meaning of the English "worship."
The Catholic Church has always been clear on the different levels of honoring the saint and Mary, and the adoration and worship due to God alone.
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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How about we get to the core of the issue? If distinctions must be made in worship terminology between what is assigned to God and that to man, then please explain it from the original Greek showing how these distinctions are strictly delineated in the Biblical text, otherwise we are dealing with speculations.
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The core of the issue is that the type of "worship" that I, a Catholic, give to Mary, and that "worship" is "hyperdulia", whether you believe it or not. God knows the distinction, and that's good enough for me! 
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That's not the core of the issue, Thunderstick, because it presupposes sola scriptura. We do not believe that the specific terms need to be present in Scripture to give us license to use them, which is why we feel quite comfortable with terms like Trinity, Incarnation, and so forth.
Rather, we believe in the authority of the Church, reflecting on Scripture and guided by the Holy Spirit, to put the appropriate context around what is and is not proper to practices in regard to the Communion of Saints, just as it did around the true Nature of God and the Incarnation of Christ.
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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quote:
Originally posted by Thunderstick
How about we get to the core of the issue? If distinctions must be made in worship terminology between what is assigned to God and that to man, then please explain it from the original Greek showing how these distinctions are strictly delineated in the Biblical text, otherwise we are dealing with speculations.
Actually, we are simply trying to answer Len's questions addressed to Catholics.
But, there have been several verses quoted that clearly illustrate that the Jewish concept of 'worship' was much more Catholic than Protestant. Although we use Latin words, the principles and concepts of veneration and degrees of worship are completely and thoroughly Biblical.
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Blessed Mary pray for us sinners!
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That's not the core of the issue, Thunderstick, because it presupposes sola scriptura. We do not believe that the specific terms need to be present in Scripture to give us license to use them, which is why we feel quite comfortable with terms like Trinity, Incarnation, and so forth.
Interpretation is at issue yet again! Whose will we believe.
1. Scripture, Luke 1:41ff "And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are YOU among women, and blessed is fruit of your womb. Why is this granted me, that the MOTHER of my Lord(Theotokos, Mother of God) should come to me?'"
Very simply, once again the Holy Spirit revealed to the Church, the meaning of such a passage concerning our Lady as the 3rd Council at Ephesus confessed. "She is Theotokos. She is God bearer. She is the ark of the New covenant. By that role, she is due the highest of human honors and praise in hymns as the Emperor would have been hymned."
given in service to Christ through the prayers of His mother, servant seraphim
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Allen, you wrote,
quote:
"We don't 'pray' to Saints in the Protestant sense of the word."
I believe if you can explain this statement just a little clearer, I may be able to better understand my misconception of Catholic prayer to saints.
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I thought this definition from encarta dictionary was good...
pray [ pray ]
verb (past prayed, past participle prayed, present participle pray·ing, 3rd person present singular prays)
1. transitive and intransitive verb speak to God or other being: to speak to God, a deity, or a saint, for example, in order to give thanks, express regret, or ask for help
2. transitive and intransitive verb hope strongly: to hope strongly for something
I’m just praying that it won’t rain on Saturday.
3. transitive and intransitive verb make an earnest request: to ask somebody for something, especially earnestly or with passion
He prayed to be allowed to go back home to his family.
4. transitive verb to attempt to achieve something by prayer
The villagers tried to pray the drought away.
interjection
emphasizing a question or command: used to emphasize a question or a command, either politely or sarcastically
And what, pray, do you think you’re doing?
[13th century. Via Old French preier from Latin precari “to entreat,” from prec- , stem of prex “prayer” (source of English deprecate and precarious).]
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