Concupiscence
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ConcupiscenceDoes anyone know what this is, and is it real? I believe it is...let's discuss.(I'm doing a study on Romans, and it is one of the main topics in that study . . . it's amazing)...I'd love to hear any insights on here. Thanks & blessings.
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Well... I wasn't referring to legal intent; rather moral intent.
The question is, when does a natural inclination become a sin?
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Can you explain the difference between a legal and a moral intent? Are you saying that the person who considers stealing from someone but doesn't sinned and that this intent is equal to lust?
An inclination (what is an unnatural inclination?) becomes sin when someone acts on it or when it deals with the emotions such as lust, hate and even indifference. It would be nice to go to some Fathers about this. Anyone know of some who have dealt with this?
"Look on the bright side, if this is the best they've got around here, in six months we'll be running this planet." (Planet of the Apes)
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quote:
Originally posted by Admin
Can you explain the difference between a legal and a moral intent?
Personally, I don't distinguish. However you made the statement that intent was a secular invention. If so, it has crept into the Church because the Catechism refers to intention several times in the context of moral judgment.
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Are you saying that the person who considers stealing from someone but doesn't sinned and that this intent is equal to lust?
I was never referring to lust. I mentioned the difference between what I will call "fleeting thoughts" and "dwelling thoughts". My understanding is that "fleeting thoughts" are the result of the condition of one's heart and are only changed through conversion, while "dwelling thoughts" are a matter of one's will.
I don't tend to "compare sins"... rather I address each as it arises. Perhaps the difference between legal and moral is that the legal system doesn't have that luxury.quote:
An inclination (what is an unnatural inclination?) becomes sin when someone acts on it or when it deals with the emotions such as lust, hate and even indifference.
I would distinguish "natural inclination" from "supernatural influence" or from circumstances, etc. I wasn't trying to imply there are "unnatural inclinations". However, there is concupiscence (a natural inclination) and then there is disorder (a result of other things). Though I think concupiscence is also referred to as disorder.quote:
It would be nice to go to some Fathers about this. Anyone know of some who have dealt with this?
I agree... I'd especially be interested in reading where those particular emotions are distinguished.
God bless,
Diana
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When you hate, you don't have to take a physical action. When you lust, you don't have to take a physical action. When you love, you don't have to take a physical action.
But stealing requires a different type of intent and its sin is in the action you take, not in your intention whereas you can still be charged with the crime of conspiracy to steal which implies intent. That is what I mean by the difference in moral and legal intent.
CCC 1750
The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the "sources," or constitutive elements, of the morality of human acts.
Intention by itself is not the same as doing an immoral act. Lust, though, whether you intend to act on your lust is sinful without the intention of physically acting on it. Same goes with hate and lying.
CCC 1756
1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.
You are not already guilty of murder by planning a murder. It is sinful, though, to plan someone's murder, but you have not already commited murder, a grave sin, if you just think about it. Lust, on the otherhand, is different.
"Look on the bright side, if this is the best they've got around here, in six months we'll be running this planet." (Planet of the Apes)
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quote:
Originally posted by Admin
When you hate, you don't have to take a physical action. When you lust, you don't have to take a physical action. When you love, you don't have to take a physical action.
Watch it... that last is a Protestant argument 
quote:
But stealing requires a different type of intent and its sin is in the action you take, not in your intention whereas you can still be charged with the crime of conspiracy to steal which implies intent. That is what I mean by the difference in moral and legal intent.
I can't say I agree. There is a legal difference in these cases you mentioned. I'm not so sure there is a moral difference. But frankly as I said I try not to "compare sins". I have enough trouble dealing with them as I become aware of them.quote:
CCC 1750
The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the "sources," or constitutive elements, of the morality of human acts.
You quoted the same two paragraphs I was referring to. We just interpret them differently.quote:
Intention by itself is not the same as doing an immoral act. Lust, though, whether you intend to act on your lust is sinful without the intention of physically acting on it. Same goes with hate and lying.
I don't disagree with this. My point is that someone recovering from a pornography addiction is going to fight thoughts constantly, even if their will is totally set against lust. This person has a wholly different intent than someone who is seeking out pornography -- even though the thoughts themselves may be very similar. The first person will dismiss the thoughts whenever possible; the second will feed them. (This is true for any addiction/habit/habitual sin, including anger, verbal abuse, physical abuse...)quote:
CCC 1756
1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.
I'm not sure how you've interpreted this paragraph. I think it is here to prevent people from trying to justify things like blowing up abortion clinics, sleeping with the boss to put food on the table, etc.quote:
You are not already guilty of murder by planning a murder. It is sinful, though, to plan someone's murder, but you have not already commited murder, a grave sin, if you just think about it. Lust, on the otherhand, is different.
I have always held that Jesus taught differently:
Matt 5:19-23
19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teache
Edited by Diana Holberg on 02/24/2005 17:30:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Admin
When you hate, you don't have to take a physical action. When you lust, you don't have to take a physical action. When you love, you don't have to take a physical action.
Watch it... that last is a Protestant argument
Au contraire. Love exists without action and with action. Normally, love exists and is exhibited in our actions. Extraordinarily, we love God when we worship him either in prayer or intellectually. It's an action inasmuch as thinking of murdering someone is an action, though.
It could only be a Protestant statement when you interpret it with once saved always saved glasses on. We have the capability to act on it normally and are required to, but if we don't have the capability then it is something that we can act on besides intellectually. Both require an action, but you are redefining what an action to apply to sin that happens in thought and physically. Below is an explaination at some of the differences. The Church has dealt with this for a long time in the confessional where the penitent often asks if they must confess the bad thoughts they had.
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My point is that someone recovering from a pornography addiction is going to fight thoughts constantly, even if their will is totally set against lust. This person has a wholly different intent than someone who is seeking out pornography -- even though the thoughts themselves may be very similar.
This may be a medical condition that we don't have enough information about and the Church would probably place this in the same category as homosexuality. Homosexuals are called to celibacy despite their inclination, just as those addicted to pornography are called to refrain from lust despite their inclination.
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The first person will dismiss the thoughts whenever possible; the second will feed them. (This is true for any addiction/habit/habitual sin, including anger, verbal abuse, physical abuse...)
But it's still a sin for a homosexual to have sex and it's still a sin for a pornography addict to lust despite the intent.
Both are called for enormous reflection and many of those with addictions have an increased awareness of spirituality that only those who practice mortification can understand; they do it every second of their lives. They are called to and are capable of leading holy lives despite these thoughts and inclinations.
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Why do you think adultery/lust is so different from murder/anger?
You misunderstand. Lust, adulty, anger, and murder are not so different. Read this quote of mine from above:
quote:
An inclination (what is an unnatural inclination?) becomes sin when someone acts on it or when it deals with the emotions such as lust, hate and even indifference.
I can see that you're clearly misunderstanding me because you claimed I believe something that I already refuted. Read my posts again, please. 
For clarity, bad thoughts are not a sin unless you hold onto them and/or act on them.
Question: Do
"Look on the bright side, if this is the best they've got around here, in six months we'll be running this planet." (Planet of the Apes)
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quote:
quote:
Why do you think adultery/lust is so different from murder/anger?
You misunderstand. Lust, adulty, anger, and murder are not so different. Read this quote of mine from above:
quote:
An inclination (what is an unnatural inclination?) becomes sin when someone acts on it or when it deals with the emotions such as lust, hate and even indifference.
I can see that you're clearly misunderstanding me because you claimed I believe something that I already refuted. Read my posts again, please.
Ah... clearly I misinterpreted you when you said:quote:
You are not already guilty of murder by planning a murder. It is sinful, though, to plan someone's murder, but you have not already commited murder, a grave sin, if you just think about it. Lust, on the otherhand, is different.
Oh, well. I will re-read the thread though, for the rest of your last post seemed to restate what I started out saying.  But you are clarifying for me mortal sin... thanks 
Edited by Diana Holberg on 02/25/2005 04:51:27
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quote:
You are not already guilty of murder by planning a murder. It is sinful, though, to plan someone's murder, but you have not already commited murder, a grave sin, if you just think about it. Lust, on the otherhand, is different.
I was explaining the difference between planning a murder and actually doing a murder. Lust is comparable to the actual murder but not like the planning of a murder...maybe a bad example, though. If you planned the murder for weeks then you have not let go of the sin, but if it's a thought that just comes to you and you dismiss it, then that's what I'm talking about.
"Look on the bright side, if this is the best they've got around here, in six months we'll be running this planet." (Planet of the Apes)
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Ah... I would've thought "planning" would entail more than a dismissed thought
Edited by Diana Holberg on 02/25/2005 10:37:33
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Yeah, you're right. That's why it's a bad example. I meant, if you think of murdering someone or maybe even start planning on killing someone.
"Look on the bright side, if this is the best they've got around here, in six months we'll be running this planet." (Planet of the Apes)
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This has become such a morbid thread [:&]
Lynne, how's your study going?
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quote:
Originally posted by Diana Holberg
This has become such a morbid thread [:&]
yes it is...
quote:
Lynne, how's your study going?
it's going very well. We had a deep conversation yesterday regarding living 'in the flesh' and living 'in the Spirit'. It all boils down to choices we make, and trusting in God's mercy, doesn't it? We'd be hypocritical to 'chose' to sin and then 'assume' that God will save us anyway. Isn't that mocking God? THe bottom line for me is that I KNOW that I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, but I MUST abide in Christ (John 15:4) in order to bear fruit...however, when I do fail, repentence more often and more frequently occurs in me, as the more I abide, the more I am aware of my sinfulness and my need for a Savior...thus, my HOPE is in Him and Him alone...not WHAT I DO, but in Him, YET I DO have participation in my salvation. Does that make sense? I do not live in the 'fear of slavery'...that is relying only on what I DO in my participation. I DO out of obedience and LOVE for God. That's how I feel...
THIS the introduction to Romans 8...
quote:
In this lesson’s section of Romans 8, Paul continues his discussion of the Christian’s struggle against concupiscence and sin. In sharp distinction to the first seven chapters of Romans, Paul suddenly begins to make constant reference to the Holy Spirit, who is the “Spirit of life” or “Spirit of sonship.” The reason for this is not far to seek: it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that we have the ability to resist the flesh, died to our concupiscent desires, and thereby share in the life of Christ. This struggle is difficult, but it can be and is accomplished daily by millions of Christians around the world. On one hand, the call here is uncompromising. God wants nothing less than all of us, body and soul. On the other hand, God accepts the smallest offering of submission to his will, no matter how weak and faltering, and uses it to further increase our capacity for grace.
and here are notes from the lesson (Romans 8:12-25)
quote:
In the first part of Romans 8 which we covered in the last lesson, Paul offers a stark choice between succumbing to the flesh and obeying the Spirit. “To set the mind on the flesh is death,” says Paul, “but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace” (Romans 8:6). Thus, not only the choice, but the consequences of the choice are stark as well: life or death, Heaven or Hell, fulfillment or destruction. In short, Paul gives us not the faintest ghost of a hope that we can aim for some sort of compromised “carnal Christianity” whereby we live for the flesh Monday through Saturday and then pencil God into our schedule on Sunday in order to maintain some kind of tenuous touch with “religion” or “the spiritual” or “the sacred.” Ultimately, God wants us body and soul — all of us —and not just the parts of our lives we prefer to give him. Like Jesus, Paul teaches that it is either the narrow way of salvation or the broad way of destruction, it is either God or Mammon, it is either the Spirit or the flesh. If we are fleshly in the sense that Paul is speaking of, we are not “carnal Christians”, we are simply apostate and are plac
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Wow... skiing, Las Vegas... what a jet-setter you have become!!
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Originally posted by Diana Holberg
Wow... skiing, Las Vegas... what a jet-setter you have become!!
not really...just too much planned all at once. We're home now for a while, but I DO enjoy travelling. My daughter (the 13 year old) competed in LV in competitive cheer, and their team won their division! Yee hee! It was very fun. I'm so proud! I'm so blessed to have such great kids...
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Lynne, that's wonderful! What an exciting weekend for our Spero bunch... I'm proud too
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