Pillar and Foudation of Truth
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Which prot/evan denomination [or non denomination] is the pillar and foundation of truth? 1 tim. 3 15 Assemblies of God Lutheran Southern Baptist Independent Baptist Vineyard Calvary Chapel Ill let some one else add a few more if they want.
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Hi John,
Very interesting COG.
So you only believe that only the red letters in the bible are absolute truth?
I’m not sure where you got this from, but all of scripture is truth.
Does Paul speak the truth?
When he preaches the gospel, yes.
Look at the depths that you will go to to hold on to your traditions of Sola Scriptura, which is untenable if you intend to understand the bible. You reject apostolic teachings but accept reformer teachings.
First, I don’t accept any ones teachings that don’t align with scripture. The litmus test is scripture, not what anyone teaches. Paul’s teachings as revealed by scripture are true.
You can not prove the 16th century reformist dogma (a man-made tradition which we all reject)of Sola Scriptura from the bible because it is not there and in fact, contradicts the bible.
See the above.
Words are transmitted by mouth before they can ever be put on papyrus or parchment. How did the earliest Christians learn the faith?
I think this was already covered, but the early Christians were Jews who had scripture.
How many people owned a bible before the printing press?
Almost none.
How many people could read the bible even if they could find one written in the venacular?
Even fewer, what is the point? The litmus test of whether someone is preaching the truth is still scripture. To do otherwise not only allows the degradations of the Catholic Church, but allows many of the cults you see today (ie. Jim Jones, David Applewhite).
In Gods Grace
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quote:
Originally posted by Child of God
First, I don’t accept any ones teachings that don’t align with scripture. The litmus test is scripture, not what anyone teaches. Paul’s teachings as revealed by scripture are true.
The core of what we are debating here COG is who decides what the scripture is saying? You write "I don’t accept any ones teachings that don’t align with scripture." but how have you decided what the correct alignment is? You ever try making a straight wall without a level?
Who decides?
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quote:
Originally posted by Pastor Billy
quote:
Originally posted by Child of God
First, I don’t accept any ones teachings that don’t align with scripture. The litmus test is scripture, not what anyone teaches. Paul’s teachings as revealed by scripture are true.
The core of what we are debating here COG is who decides what the scripture is saying? You write "I don’t accept any ones teachings that don’t align with scripture." but how have you decided what the correct alignment is? You ever try making a straight wall without a level?
Who decides?
At least in my case the Holy Spirit does.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6: In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
In Gods Grace
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Correct me please if I'm incorrect but didn't you admit to being a non-denominational church member? and if yes it's been my experience your admission of Holy Spirit instruction becomes questionable as there is much doctrinal division and differing scriptural interpretation among the Non-denominational body.
Again the Eunuch has an earthly instructor in Philip which you negglect to acknowledge. You could make the argument Philip was filled with the Holy Spirit but you cannot make the argument the Eunuch alone without an annointed apostolic authority was being led by the Spirit. At this point I usually get an "amen" but the next response usually claims interpretative understanding by the Eunuch after baptism. Clearly nowhere in the text after the Eunuch's baptism do we read of him interpreting on his own yet some faith traditions make it so, so as to once again make a denial of the annointed teaching authority which forms the magisterium of the Christian Church.
Edited by Pastor Billy on 03/14/2007 12:51:37
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PASTOR BILLY: Correct me please if I'm incorrect but didn't you admit to being a non-denominational church member? and if yes it's been my experience your admission of Holy Spirit instruction becomes questionable as there is much doctrinal division and differing scriptural interpretation among the Non-denominational body.
WYGANTSH RESPONSE: This comment filled with inferences and conclusions that are demeaning and self serving; "you admit" and "your questionable". WOW. It must be a long way up the hill your writing from. I don't know if that's a hill I want to climb.
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quote:
Originally posted by wygantsh
quote:
PASTOR BILLY: Correct me please if I'm incorrect but didn't you admit to being a non-denominational church member? and if yes it's been my experience your admission of Holy Spirit instruction becomes questionable as there is much doctrinal division and differing scriptural interpretation among the Non-denominational body.
WYGANTSH RESPONSE: This comment filled with inferences and conclusions that are demeaning and self serving; "you admit" and "your questionable". WOW. It must be a long way up the hill your writing from. I don't know if that's a hill I want to climb.
Oh this is just plain silly. I'm an admitted Catholic what's wrong with being an admitted Non-denominational. What exactly is inferred? I'm not guessing at the variance of biblical interpretation in that community I'm stating it as matter of fact there is no inference.
If it was demeaning everytime someone questioned my affiliation in these forum discussion I wouldn't stick around now would I. I've ignored your posts wygantsh you should just ignore mine.
Edited by Pastor Billy on 03/14/2007 15:40:59
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Dear Pastor Billy: your statement: 'you admit to being a non-denominational church member' and your characterization of non-denominational churches as 'questionable' are, in my opinion, statements of pride in that the inference you make is that Catholic is superior to non-denominational because you said so. This is exlusionary and in my opinion, I feel that it is NON-CHRISTIAN.
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No more exclusionary or Non-Christian than calling the Catholic Church a book-burning toady of Constantine, which is in essence what you have said previously.
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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Daer Theophilus; There is nothing non-Christian about recounting a historical FACT that the Catholic Church murdered people they considered heretics and burned their books so that no other Chrsitians could read their 'heresies'. While the modern Catholic Church does not engage in this practice any longer it doesn't mean that they wouldn't resume it if they had the policital and military power that they had prior to our Freemason Brothers George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and Ben Franklin drafting and signing into law our bill of rights and constitution granting to us Freedom of thought, speech and religious practice.
Anyone who engages in the denigration of this Freedom of Religion and expression by trying to impute heresies to personal religious beliefs is anti-Christ and anti-Christian.
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Hi Pastor Billy,
Correct me please if I'm incorrect but didn't you admit to being a non-denominational church member? and if yes it's been my experience your admission of Holy Spirit instruction becomes questionable as there is much doctrinal division and differing scriptural interpretation among the Non-denominational body.
I am now a non denominational, but if you were to read the earlier discussion between myself and Allen, you would see that all my theology came about when I was very much in communion with the Catholic church.
Again the Eunuch has an earthly instructor in Philip which you negglect to acknowledge. You could make the argument Philip was filled with the Holy Spirit but you cannot make the argument the Eunuch alone without an annointed apostolic authority was being led by the Spirit. At this point I usually get an "amen" but the next response usually claims interpretative understanding by the Eunuch after baptism. Clearly nowhere in the text after the Eunuch's baptism do we read of him interpreting on his own yet some faith traditions make it so, so as to once again make a denial of the annointed teaching authority which forms the magisterium of the Christian Church.
But someone who is not born again is not led by the Spirit. The Eunuch was not led by the Spirit and therefore was unable to understand the scripture. And as you say we don't know about him after, but God promises those who have been born again the ability to understand.
1 John 2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
In Gods Grace
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quote:
Originally posted by wygantsh
Daer Theophilus; There is nothing non-Christian about recounting a historical FACT that the Catholic Church murdered people they considered heretics and burned their books so that no other Chrsitians could read their 'heresies'. While the modern Catholic Church does not engage in this practice any longer it doesn't mean that they wouldn't resume it if they had the policital and military power that they had prior to our Freemason Brothers George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and Ben Franklin drafting and signing into law our bill of rights and constitution granting to us Freedom of thought, speech and religious practice.
Anyone who engages in the denigration of this Freedom of Religion and expression by trying to impute heresies to personal religious beliefs is anti-Christ and anti-Christian.
All of your remarks with regards to the Catholic Church (burning books etc) in this post is heresay. Basically you've heard these stories of institutialized persecution second-hand and repeat it here. Please provide some factual stories so we can determine the exact intent. Need I remind you the forefathers of America had just fought a war of independence from colonial Britain not colonial Vatican. There policies of protectionism were not made to counter persecution from a future Catholic monarch but a Protestant one. Learn British history in England at the time of the Puritans you'll discover even though the Puritan sect ended up extremely anti-Catholic, those Catholics still in England pressed government for freedom of religious practice for everyone including the Puritans.
I do not take your comments as matter-of-fact so do some homework please beforehand if you wish to be taken seriously. My comments on the non-denominational community is not a "denigration" but a valid observation of it's lack of unity of doctrine.
The original point I was making is the Holy Spirit doesn't teach confusion. COG claims now the theological view he/she holds to was formulated prior to becoming a non-denominational member. This however does not solve or shift the problem of lack of doctrinal unity in that community. The idea of individual interpretation within the non-denominational community makes for a very loose communion. Anyone have stats on the Church splitting of different Protestant denominations? I'm not asking others to agree but for me I cannot see the Holy Spirit leading the leadership of the non-denominational community in all instruction primarily because of the confusion of doctrinal belief.
Edited by Pastor Billy on 03/15/2007 08:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by wygantsh
Daer Theophilus; There is nothing non-Christian about recounting a historical FACT that the Catholic Church murdered people they considered heretics and burned their books so that no other Chrsitians could read their 'heresies'.
If we're keeping score, so did Calvinists, Arians, Lutherans, Anglicans, and just about every other Non-Christian and Non-Catholic Christian group. Shall we recount the Arian Vandals sacking Hippo and Carthage, killing priests and Catholics who refused to recant their Nicene beliefs, or the Waldensians/Cathari who killed a papal legate in the middle ages who was trying to bring peace to a religious dispute? How about the forceful removal of Catholics from their lands to be given to local princes in Germany, or to Henry VIII in England?
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While the modern Catholic Church does not engage in this practice any longer it doesn't mean that they wouldn't resume it if they had the policital and military power that they had prior to our Freemason Brothers George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and Ben Franklin drafting and signing into law our bill of rights and constitution granting to us Freedom of thought, speech and religious practice.
This is hilarious. Do you realize that Jefferson's writings on the Bill of Rights and the right to religious freedom in Virginia indicate his intention to help Catholics be able to worship? Catholics in America are the single biggest winner in the fight for freedom of religion. At the time of the Consitution, several colonies banned "papists" from holding property, and made the ownership of property a condition for voting. As a religious group, Catholics had thus been disenfranchised.
Catholics had virtually no political power in the colonies (since they were, after all, ENGLISH colonies).
We should also remember that Washington, while commander of the Continental Army, banned anti-catholic celebrations and activities on the part of some members of the army, because he found it patently unjust to be fighting for independence and the idea all men were created equal while having an entire group persecuted or ridiculed within the army simply because they were Catholic.
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Anyone who engages in the denigration of this Freedom of Religion and expression by trying to impute heresies to personal religious beliefs is anti-Christ and anti-Christian.
We all acknowledge your Constitutional right to worship as you please, but that doesn't mean we have to think your worship is orthodox, since it isn't. We are perfectly within OUR rights to call that out. Get over it.
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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quote:
Originally posted by Child of God
Hi Pastor Billy,
Correct me please if I'm incorrect but didn't you admit to being a non-denominational church member? and if yes it's been my experience your admission of Holy Spirit instruction becomes questionable as there is much doctrinal division and differing scriptural interpretation among the Non-denominational body.
I am now a non denominational, but if you were to read the earlier discussion between myself and Allen, you would see that all my theology came about when I was very much in communion with the Catholic church.
Again the Eunuch has an earthly instructor in Philip which you negglect to acknowledge. You could make the argument Philip was filled with the Holy Spirit but you cannot make the argument the Eunuch alone without an annointed apostolic authority was being led by the Spirit. At this point I usually get an "amen" but the next response usually claims interpretative understanding by the Eunuch after baptism. Clearly nowhere in the text after the Eunuch's baptism do we read of him interpreting on his own yet some faith traditions make it so, so as to once again make a denial of the annointed teaching authority which forms the magisterium of the Christian Church.
But someone who is not born again is not led by the Spirit. The Eunuch was not led by the Spirit and therefore was unable to understand the scripture. And as you say we don't know about him after, but God promises those who have been born again the ability to understand.
1 John 2:27: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
In Gods Grace
COG what do you make of 1John2:19? and where in 1John2:27 do we find all things meaning all things only in scripture? (back to the meaning of truth). Several verse prior to 1John2:19 you discover truth being presented as acceptance of the Father and Son. My point here relates back to your original assertions of truth=scripture which I took to mean truth=scripture alone. Jehovah Witnesses have bibles and use them yet they teach a doctrine of rejection of Father and Son surely therefore all truth does not equal scripture alone for if it did they would know the truth.
From Acts example of the Eunuch coming to understand the Christian faith we learn one cannot agree to Sola Scriptura doctrine if one hopes for his education to be complete. As agreed upon there is no additional commentary on the Eunuch being led by the Holy Spirit independantly of Philip. Therefore in deciding what is or isn't doctrine of the faith the Eunuch requires a teaching authority from the Church to continue to guide him. Therefore one needs to go outside of scripture to make the claim the Eunuch continued on in truthful doctrine void of the magisterium.
Take one path or the other but not both.
The additional verse used as proof from 1John is taken in isolation. In reading 1John complete we learn a discussion not to the individual but to the whole body of the Church. The Holy Spirit resides with the Church 1John2:19 begins the realisation of what happens when those leaning upon independance fall away in faith and doctrine.
I personally think these concepts of unity of doctrine and faith within what was and is less so a predominately Protestant America are hard to grasp with such a history of rugged individualism. Afterall the hotbed of Protestant denominationalism/divison is found and established in......America. <
Edited by Pastor Billy on 03/15/2007 08:28:32
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PASTOR BILLY WROTE: All of your remarks with regards to the Catholic Church (burning books etc) in this post is heresay.
WYGANTSH RESPONSE: There are at least 20 different historically accurate secular scholarly sources that substantiate the facts that I recited;
1) The ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH burned books they deemed heresy
2) The ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH imprisoned and murdered people they deemed heretics.
3) The ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH exercised police powers through its bishops of unlawful searches and seizures of personal property, false imprisonment, kidnapping, torture, mutilation, fabricated evidence, concealed exculpatory evidence, denied the accused due process and a presumption of innocence, denied the accused proper legal representation, and denied the accused a jury trial by their peers. .
4) The ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH treated people accused of thoughts that contradicted the church's doctrine as a capital criminals deserving death.
quote:
PASTOR BILLY FURTHER WROTE: Basically you've heard these stories of institutialized persecution second-hand and repeat it here
WYGANTSH RESPONSE: The facts listed above are not second hand stories they are from the history of common law, church law, european monarchies, the roman empire, british empire, and the united states of america. The development of common law and church law is very well documented by secular scholars and is not tainted or biased to present the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH in a negative or positive light and so I consider the the documents and transcripts several of the 'heresy trials' and 'witch trials' conducted by the Church or on behalf of the church as an interested party to be authoratative.
For example the transcripts from the imprisonment, trial and execution of Joan of Arc is a 258 page unabridged authentic document which substantiates and corroborates her story and the church's actions of bearing false witness against her, false imprisonment, torture, and execution simply for her beliefs. This evil committed by the CHURCH is the ENTIRELY the reason why ENGLAND separated from ROME and killed all of the CAtholic heirs to the throne of England and Scotland.
I could fill up 1000 pages of TRUE historically accurate accounts of the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH destroying peoples freedom of thought, speech and religion however it would be too long for this post.
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This evil committed by the CHURCH is the ENTIRELY the reason why ENGLAND separated from ROME and killed all of the CAtholic heirs to the throne of England and Scotland.
Christian behavior, that.
So England didn't separate from Rome because Henry VIII couldn't secure a divorce from the person he asked the Pope special permission to marry in the first place? It wasn't because he wanted Catholic lands like monasteries and the like? It wasn't because he thought that as king he should be the leading religious figure in England?
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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