Can a great faith Christian raise micheal Jackson
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Can a great faith Christian raise micheal Jackson from the dead??The bible does say we can do greater things as jesus , and we can cast out demon raise the dead, so I thought about MJ and if he was to be raised from the dead it would be a great witness to the christian more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Matthaeus 6:14-15 (Luther Bibel 1545)
14Denn so ihr den Menschen ihre Fehler vergebet, so wird euch euer himmlischer Vater auch vergeben,
15Wo ihr aber den Menschen ihre Fehler nicht vergebet, so wird euch euer Vater eure Fehler auch nicht vergeben."
And in a different German translation:
Matthaeus 6:14-15 (Hoffnung für Alle)
"14 Euer Vater im Himmel wird euch vergeben, wenn ihr den Menschen vergebt, die euch Unrecht getan haben.
15 Wenn ihr ihnen aber nicht vergeben wollt, dann wird Gott auch eure Schuld nicht vergeben."
It does not change. If you do not forgive others, God (your Father) in Heaven will NOT forgive you.
thanks for putting it german , but I like the elberfelder bible bitter!
Heb 10:17 und ihrer Sünden und Ungerechtigkeit will ich nicht mehr gedenken."
one love
You don't mind that the elberfelder bible changes "Father" to "God"? They are both the same person, but it sounds a little more formal than what is found in the Greek.
And you still can't use one passage such as Hebrews 10:17 (which is a quote from the Old Testament) to ovewrite passages that you do not agree with.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Matthaeus 6:14-15 (Luther Bibel 1545)
14Denn so ihr den Menschen ihre Fehler vergebet, so wird euch euer himmlischer Vater auch vergeben,
15Wo ihr aber den Menschen ihre Fehler nicht vergebet, so wird euch euer Vater eure Fehler auch nicht vergeben."
And in a different German translation:
Matthaeus 6:14-15 (Hoffnung für Alle)
"14 Euer Vater im Himmel wird euch vergeben, wenn ihr den Menschen vergebt, die euch Unrecht getan haben.
15 Wenn ihr ihnen aber nicht vergeben wollt, dann wird Gott auch eure Schuld nicht vergeben."
It does not change. If you do not forgive others, God (your Father) in Heaven will NOT forgive you.
thanks for putting it german , but I like the elberfelder bible bitter!
Heb 10:17 und ihrer Sünden und Ungerechtigkeit will ich nicht mehr gedenken."
one love
You don't mind that the elberfelder bible changes "Father" to "God"? They are both the same person, but it sounds a little more formal than what is found in the Greek.
And you still can't use one passage such as Hebrews 10:17 (which is a quote from the Old Testament) to ovewrite passages that you do not agree with.
There is more verses I can use but I find this very clear and simple to use for startes to prove the bible infallibe.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
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You cannot use the Bible to prove that it is infallible, that is circular reasoning.
Further, while the Bible is inerrant, that does not mean that the person reading it will understand it without error.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
You cannot use the Bible to prove that it is infallible, that is circular reasoning.
Further, while the Bible is inerrant, that does not mean that the person reading it will understand it without error.
Amen!
Now tell that to your pope!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
He knows that better than you. But fortunately for the Pope, Jesus promised that he will not teach error. That does not mean that the pope will never think anything erroneously, or that everything he says casually will be correct.
Jesus told Peter that whatever he bound on earth would be bound in Heaven, and whatever he loosed on earth would be loosed in Heaven. Jesus also promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church. Under the circumstances, that means that either Jesus will be preserving Peter and his successors from error when they are interpreting (along with the Magisterium - the rest of the Apostles were granted similar authority w/o the keys); or we are bound by Christ to uphold whatever Peter and his successors teach regardless of whether it is right or not.
Even those that ruled before that such authority that even while Christ was walking with them, the Apostles were bound by Christ to obey those who sat in Moses seat (just not follow their example).
Matthew 23:1-3 "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."
Others may guess at what the proper interpretation might be, the Pope and the Magisterium do not have to guess, they have the authority to state it.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
He knows that better than you. But fortunately for the Pope, Jesus promised that he will not teach error. That does not mean that the pope will never think anything erroneously, or that everything he says casually will be correct.
Jesus told Peter that whatever he bound on earth would be bound in Heaven, and whatever he loosed on earth would be loosed in Heaven. Jesus also promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church. Under the circumstances, that means that either Jesus will be preserving Peter and his successors from error when they are interpreting (along with the Magisterium - the rest of the Apostles were granted similar authority w/o the keys); or we are bound by Christ to uphold whatever Peter and his successors teach regardless of whether it is right or not.
Even those that ruled before that such authority that even while Christ was walking with them, the Apostles were bound by Christ to obey those who sat in Moses seat (just not follow their example).
Matthew 23:1-3 "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."
Others may guess at what the proper interpretation might be, the Pope and the Magisterium do not have to guess, they have the authority to state it.
But even Peter made the error of denying Jesus three times, and also a pope is not Peter and never walked with Jesus.
Today the good news is that Jesus has no respect of person, and we all have the same measure of faith given to us, it is just we don't use all what we have, even our authority which the church or body has!
I still never heard of a pope walking on water or thier shadom healing people .
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 09/04/2009 09:31:10
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Location: Canada
God wasn't a respector of persons when Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom, and no other Apostle or disciple at that time. God wasn't a respector of persons when Jesus asked Peter three times to feed His flock, and no one else.
The passage refers to the fact that Christianity is available to all people and not just Jews. But it does not mean, nor did it ever mean, that Jesus would not appoint men to rule over us.
Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you."
Peter denied Christ prior to receiving the Keys and prior to being asked by Christ to feed His Flock.
As for the current Pope. While Christ was alive, there was no need for Peter to have the primacy that Jesus gave him. There was no need during Christ's earthly walk, for any of the Apostles to have the authority to Bind and Loose. All of these things became very important after Christ ascended. Now more than ever, the successors to Peter and the Apostles need this authority.
Paul wrote his epistles after Christ ascended, when he wrote that we are to obey those who have rule over us. It was after Christ died that detailed descriptions were given regarding the ordination of bishops, presbyters and deacon. To come along in the 21st century and claim that we are so equal that no one has any authority over anyone else makes a liar out of Paul and much of the New Testament.
The very epistles themselves are evidence of authority being exercised. So if you are going to choose your own path, burn your Bible and stop this nonsence of "claiming" with fingers crossed, that you use the Bible as your Final Authority, because the reality is that you do NOT. You only want everyone else to choose the Bible over the Church so that they can utterly loose their faith in both and then follow in your footsteps.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Member since 11/25/2005
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WHY would anyone want to raise MJ from the dead ????
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
God wasn't a respector of persons when Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom, and no other Apostle or disciple at that time. God wasn't a respector of persons when Jesus asked Peter three times to feed His flock, and no one else.
The passage refers to the fact that Christianity is available to all people and not just Jews. But it does not mean, nor did it ever mean, that Jesus would not appoint men to rule over us.
Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you."
Peter denied Christ prior to receiving the Keys and prior to being asked by Christ to feed His Flock.
As for the current Pope. While Christ was alive, there was no need for Peter to have the primacy that Jesus gave him. There was no need during Christ's earthly walk, for any of the Apostles to have the authority to Bind and Loose. All of these things became very important after Christ ascended. Now more than ever, the successors to Peter and the Apostles need this authority.
Paul wrote his epistles after Christ ascended, when he wrote that we are to obey those who have rule over us. It was after Christ died that detailed descriptions were given regarding the ordination of bishops, presbyters and deacon. To come along in the 21st century and claim that we are so equal that no one has any authority over anyone else makes a liar out of Paul and much of the New Testament.
The very epistles themselves are evidence of authority being exercised. So if you are going to choose your own path, burn your Bible and stop this nonsence of "claiming" with fingers crossed, that you use the Bible as your Final Authority, because the reality is that you do NOT. You only want everyone else to choose the Bible over the Church so that they can utterly loose their faith in both and then follow in your footsteps.
The bible is alive it is not just another trent or some historical book , it works and can be tested, with faith and belief.
That is why it hold the authority it has , it has power, and is a weapon satan hates the most.
About Paul haing the key is another topic and being Jesus manigfested as the rock is another great error.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 09/07/2009 10:08:42
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the bible is alive and is an authority but it didnt raise itself from the dead evan. the church canonized it. i think protestants think the bible is like some book of magic spells sometimes. it's sad though that they will not recognize the authority of the church in interpretation yet are very quick to claim their own rights of interpretation. at least with the papacy there are rules and guidelines about interpretation, but with many believers it's just an i'm right because i feel it interpretation.
mike
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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PM
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Without those rules in place we end up with Christians who think that they can sin with impunity or must handle poisonous snakes or must given evidence of their faith by speaking in tongues (or else be damned to Hell) or think that Jesus is a separate god from the Father or that there is no Trinity.
Any interpretation is possible using the Bible, and every single Christian and pseudo-Christian sect out there believes that they have the Bible as their final authority and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Clearly, most of them are wrong.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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PM
Member since 06/26/2002
for all the talk on works and law... my experience has been that the most legalistic christians are those that are antinomian. all those people pointing at the catholic church as being works oriented are most often the worst offenders with rules and regulations..
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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PM
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Amen. I have been amazed at the groups pointing fingers at the Church who were far stricter and legalistic than the Church ever was.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
the bible is alive and is an authority but it didnt raise itself from the dead evan. the church canonized it. i think protestants think the bible is like some book of magic spells sometimes. it's sad though that they will not recognize the authority of the church in interpretation yet are very quick to claim their own rights of interpretation. at least with the papacy there are rules and guidelines about interpretation, but with many believers it's just an i'm right because i feel it interpretation.
mike
The Holy SPIRIT made it alive and our born again spirit bear record of the truth of the interpretation of the scriptures, becauzse our born again spirits come from heaven and direct from God!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Without those rules in place we end up with Christians who think that they can sin with impunity or must handle poisonous snakes or must given evidence of their faith by speaking in tongues (or else be damned to Hell) or think that Jesus is a separate god from the Father or that there is no Trinity.
Any interpretation is possible using the Bible, and every single Christian and pseudo-Christian sect out there believes that they have the Bible as their final authority and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Clearly, most of them are wrong.
JHW and mormons are a good example because they do see the bible as having the final authority .
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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