Can a great faith Christian raise micheal Jackson
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First Member
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Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Can a great faith Christian raise micheal Jackson from the dead??The bible does say we can do greater things as jesus , and we can cast out demon raise the dead, so I thought about MJ and if he was to be raised from the dead it would be a great witness to the christian more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
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PM
Member since 08/17/2005
Location: USA
There is no changing the destination of a person once this life is over. If God did not call, draw, regenerate, justify, and sanctify a person during life, there will be no miracle after death. See the parable of the rich man and Lazarus for clear evidence of this. There is absolutely NO evidence found in Scripture that tells me that my prayers for a dead man can change his eternal destiny. That is a Catholic myth which was used throughout much of history (used in conjunction with indulgences during the most corrupt portion of Catholic history just prior to the Reformation) to drain poor people out of every cent they had and to teach wealthy people that they could live however they wanted and use their money and their descendants to buy their way out of purgatory (which is another Catholic invention). What a rude awakening for so many hell must be, and all propagated by the Church? Wow!
Now, I do not claim to have any certainty about the condition of Jackson's soul, but there was zero outward evidence/fruit to prove that he was a genuine believer. In many ways, he was a product of his environment, but ultimately he is responsible for his own soul, as is every man. (Romans 1) His parents and others may well share in responsibility, and they will answer for that, but as far as his salvation is concerned, he alone is responsible.
Regarding raising people from the dead, that is indeed a thing that only God can do. There are no documented, verifiable cases of people being raised from the dead by any modern charismatics, and trust me on this one Evan, none of your buddies will be making any attempts with Michael Jackson. He's too well known and his case is too well know- and he's been declared dead without any doubt. So this would make faking a resurrection impossible. So, it won't be attempted.
Aside from that, God always has a reason for everything He does, and I can't see how God would be glorified in any way by raising a man who lived such a god-less life from the dead. As a matter of fact, all it would do would be to remove what little fear of God many people have. They would think, "Hey, if I totally ruin my life, God will just give me another shot at it!" And this wouldn't serve any good purpose.
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Fifth Member
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Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
Rev, sometimes I agree with your statements 100%, but this is just a diatribe full of ignorance. Not just distorted, but a false view of history and Catholic teaching. Did you read this somewhere or just make it up, or feel free to embellish on Protestant myths. Did you visit Jack Chick's website or something?
People in purgatory have already had their destiny sealed. They are bound for heaven, but not until they are ready to stand before a holy God. 1Cor 3 is a pretty clear passage -those who will be saved through fire. I know both Augustine and Aquinas used this to support what has always been taught in the church.
We can't pray to change the destiny of anyone. Where did you dream that up? We can pray for the dead, but if the physically dead person is destined for hell, our prayers have no effect for that person. We can pray for those in purgatory that their suffering may be lessened. We don't even have a definition for purgatory, but it is a transitional state between earth and heaven (similar to Sheol). Since it is outside of time, it may be an instant of intense transformation.
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven and even a dunghill covered with snow still stinks when the burning fire of God's love is revealed in full.
Indulgences are only granted for those in a state of Grace already (thus bound for heaven). It has nothing at all to do with allowing people to live evil lives, but takes away temporal punishment for sin - the consequences of your sinful deeds. It is too deep a subject to cover here, so I won't go any further. Suffice it to say, that indulgences have nothing to do with one's eternal destiny.
There was a priest (I believe his name was Tetzel) that was selling indulgences in direct opposition to what the church teaches. This rightly disgusted Martin Luther as it should all orthodox Catholics. This was pure manipulation and a sinful act by Tetzel.
I continue to be amazed to think that a Protestant can point out a bad pope here and a heretic priest there and say, AH-HA, the Catholic Church is Apostate. I would think Calvinists more than most would know there are sinners in the church. I'm also amazed that one one hand you call us legalistic and on the other hand can say we can sin all we want. Maybe I'm dense, but even my Baptist wife thinks its too hard to be Catholic because they take sin too seriously. She's right, I do take it seriously, because it offends my Father.
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Fifth Member
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Member since 01/26/2008
Location: USA
What is the motive for you to raise Michael Jackson from the dead?
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New Member
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Member since 05/12/2008
God will raise us from the dead, all in His Good time.
Anyway, I think Michael Jackson will have to go through a period of purification first. It's called, purgatory. I certainly would like to be pure, before facing God !
Edited by Flos Campi on 07/01/2009 06:16:32
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Fifth Member
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Member since 08/17/2005
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Rev, sometimes I agree with your statements 100%, but this is just a diatribe full of ignorance. Not just distorted, but a false view of history and Catholic teaching. Did you read this somewhere or just make it up, or feel free to embellish on Protestant myths. Did you visit Jack Chick's website or something?
People in purgatory have already had their destiny sealed. They are bound for heaven, but not until they are ready to stand before a holy God. 1Cor 3 is a pretty clear passage -those who will be saved through fire. I know both Augustine and Aquinas used this to support what has always been taught in the church.
We can't pray to change the destiny of anyone. Where did you dream that up? We can pray for the dead, but if the physically dead person is destined for hell, our prayers have no effect for that person. We can pray for those in purgatory that their suffering may be lessened. We don't even have a definition for purgatory, but it is a transitional state between earth and heaven (similar to Sheol). Since it is outside of time, it may be an instant of intense transformation.
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven and even a dunghill covered with snow still stinks when the burning fire of God's love is revealed in full.
Indulgences are only granted for those in a state of Grace already (thus bound for heaven). It has nothing at all to do with allowing people to live evil lives, but takes away temporal punishment for sin - the consequences of your sinful deeds. It is too deep a subject to cover here, so I won't go any further. Suffice it to say, that indulgences have nothing to do with one's eternal destiny.
There was a priest (I believe his name was Tetzel) that was selling indulgences in direct opposition to what the church teaches. This rightly disgusted Martin Luther as it should all orthodox Catholics. This was pure manipulation and a sinful act by Tetzel.
I continue to be amazed to think that a Protestant can point out a bad pope here and a heretic priest there and say, AH-HA, the Catholic Church is Apostate. I would think Calvinists more than most would know there are sinners in the church. I'm also amazed that one one hand you call us legalistic and on the other hand can say we can sin all we want. Maybe I'm dense, but even my Baptist wife thinks its too hard to be Catholic because they take sin too seriously. She's right, I do take it seriously, because it offends my Father.
Thanks for the correction jdubya. I seriously misunderstood that point. I thought I had understood it correctly, but I was mistaken.
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Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Quote REV:
See the parable of the rich man and Lazarus for clear evidence of this. There is absolutely NO evidence found in Scripture that tells me that my prayers for a dead man can change his eternal destiny. That is a Catholic myth which was used throughout much of history (used in conjunction with indulgences during the most corrupt portion of Catholic history just prior to the Reformation) to drain poor people out of every cent they had and to teach wealthy people that they could live however they wanted and use their money and their descendants to buy their way out of purgatory (which is another Catholic invention). What a rude awakening for so many hell must be, and all propagated by the Church? Wow!
Now, I do not claim to have any certainty about the condition of Jackson's soul, but there was zero outward evidence/fruit to prove that he was a genuine believer. In many ways, he was a product of his environment, but ultimately he is responsible for his own soul, as is every man. (Romans 1) His parents and others may well share in responsibility, and they will answer for that, but as far as his salvation is concerned, he alone is responsible.
I agree 100% REV!
thanks for sharing your views.
Shalom
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
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Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
Right after Rev said he was mistaken, Evan comes in and agrees with him. Sheesh.
How many years have you been on this site Evan and you still don't know what you are railing against, even when they've been explained dozens of times? Incredible. It just proves the point that the reformation myths may never be put to rest. They are just way too much fun.
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Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Well at least he understands that we cannot change someone else's eternal destiny after they die. Now we just have to get him to let them rest in peace and not try to resurrect them.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 07/01/2009 19:45:07
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Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Quote REV:
Regarding raising people from the dead, that is indeed a thing that only God can do. There are no documented, verifiable cases of people being raised from the dead by any modern charismatics, and trust me on this one Evan, none of your buddies will be making any attempts with Michael Jackson. He's too well known and his case is too well know- and he's been declared dead without any doubt. So this would make faking a resurrection impossible. So, it won't be attempted.
Aside from that, God always has a reason for everything He does, and I can't see how God would be glorified in any way by raising a man who lived such a god-less life from the dead. As a matter of fact, all it would do would be to remove what little fear of God many people have. They would think, "Hey, if I totally ruin my life, God will just give me another shot at it!" And this wouldn't serve any good purpose.
Quote Evagelist:
Watch these video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CIHPor_haA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc6EGHhyUeY&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxiGC0KY9Gg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_uIvqHmzuY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbysGEW5vec&feature=PlayList&p=013C7996C113B770&index=11
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Watch one more of a person who is a unbeliever which was raised from the dead!
A none christian raised from the dead testimony of a doctor:
http://www.google.de/search?q=1&rlz=1I7RNWN_de
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Watch one more of a person who is a unbeliever which was raised from the dead!
A none christian raised from the dead testimony of a doctor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggRYobeNAmU
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Part one man raised from the dead testimony from a medical certify doctor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tABlOWpE8FQ&feature=related
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
oh evan...
did anyone notice that the man in the first video changed his pants between scenes?
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Fifth Member
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Member since 04/16/2004
Location: USA
Evan - I've got a great challange for you!!!! Why dont you go to Italy and bring back to life those persons that were burned to death in the railroad accident a few days. After than go to the Indian Ocean and bring back to life those that perished in the AirBus crash a few days. Then top it off and go to the Atlantic Ocean and bring back to life those that died in the Brazlian Airplane crash.
There were many innocents that died in those accidents. Forget about MJ.
Oh, and take a camera with you so you can post those miracles on YouTube. And be sure to take same well known liberal and conservative newsmen/women so they can be witnesses..
We must never glance at what is good in ourselves, much less ponder over it, but we should search out what is wrong and what is lacking. This is an excellent way of remaining humble.
--St. Vincent de Paul
Ad Jesum Per Mariam
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Fifth Member
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Member since 08/17/2005
Location: USA
Evangelist, I have no trouble believing that God is able to raise people from the dead. I would even have no trouble believing that He still does it today through His followers at various times and in various places when it serves His plan and purposes. What I have trouble with is when it becomes a sideshow or like a circus coming to town. What does Scripture say? What did Jesus say?
1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 But He replied to them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’
3 “And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?
4 “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah.” And He left them and went away. (Matthew 16:1-4)
Wicked men seek for signs because all they are interested in is a big show and some big excitement. They aren't truly interested in Christ. It's like the crowds that followed Jesus around after He fed the 5,000 and the 4,000. Jesus turned to them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled."
It's the entire attitude of the charismatic movement Evangelist. They want a big show. It's big money. It's big entertainment. As a matter of fact, if you gather and DON'T have someone speak in tongues, someone slain in the spirit, someone healed, or someone "resurrected" from the dead, you think God hasn't been there. Actually, He probably hasn't been there if you gathered for these purposes. The very fact that you can schedule these miracles into a service tells me that they are fake.
So many of the leaders of these groups remind me of Simon the sorcerer from Acts 8 who thought he could buy the ability to give the Holy Spirit to someone even as the Apostles had. Where does such a desire come from? It doesn't come from God. It's certainly not about the glory of God. It's all about the glory of man. That's why God doesn't truly bless.
But what did Paul say about people such as this and what should be our aim?
22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Cor. 1:22-24)
So, what is my advice to you Evangelist? Don't seek a ministry. Seek Christ. Don't seek a big show. Seek to know God. Don't try to wow people with miraculous gifts, signs, and emotional gobbelty gook, preach Christ crucified and trust God to decide when He will show Himself in some mighty way. Repent. Return to your first love. Get the stars out of your eyes and the dollar signs out of your heart. Pray that God will graciously teach you all about who He is as you earnestly seek His face.
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