The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to
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Part 2 The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!Mike and many other RCC think if you are not baptized in water you are not saved.Salvation can only come by water baptism think many religious people.Not only the RCC but the church of Jesus Christ and more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/19/2009 13:58:35
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
the only reason i can think of for a person not to want a ring in a marriage is because they plan to cheat. your right about one thing though evan, you are going around in loops. my thought is that if you don't believe baptism actually means anything then don't do it at all.. it's just a dead work of the flesh then. the ancient church believes that baptism is not a dead work but a living gift from christ. we are consistent in that we do what we believe and preach and you do what you don't preach. i simply don't understand why evangelicals even bother with baptism, especially when they only see it as a bath, or dead ritual. unless deep down they don't really trust as much as they claim and just want to play it safe.
Quote Evangelist:
I think you still remember when you were a so called pentecostal, how they taught about the importance of baptism but is not a requirement to get saved. remember a person got saved compeletly on the alter call or born again, and they were not wet.
the ancient church was sacramental evan, because jesus was sacramental, spiritual God in physical flesh. the ancient church also knew that trust is never about just thinking, but absolutely about doing too. the problem is that for the post protestant sects, anything we do physically can be lumped into a "work" regardless of what the writers of the new testament actually meant by that word. Paul talked about works and grace, works were things we got from the laws of moses, and grace was what we got from Christ. the modern sects now believe that works are from Christ too and have adopted a form of gnosticism where anything physical is bad, i soon expect some to deny christ even came in the flesh.
just like the man who refuses a wedding ring (unless there is some reasonable situation that would prevent him from doing so) is probably going to cheat, so a christian that refuses to be baptized (unless there is some reasonable situation that would prevent him from doing so) is also un faithful. at the very least he has too much pride and lacks humility. the man who wants all the goods of a marriage, relationship, sex, family, children but lacks the commitment to actually tie the knot, is not a married man even if it appears that he is on the outside. in the same way a believer that wants all the goods of faith, church, communion, spirituality, fellowship, but refuses to be baptized is really no different than the pseudo married man. he wants the benefits without the commitment... and it's the commitment that prove things like faith and trust, not benefits.
But Mike is that person who got married still married without the wedding ring?
Even if they cheat it is adulterey ,and that is because that person is still married!
So the truth is a person can get married without the ring.
Also the same a person is saved without getting wet.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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but the water is not the same as the ring. The ring is a decoration to wear after one is actually married as a sign that they are married. For it to be equivalent, we would have to constantly keep our baptismal water in a flask with us. This of course is not required. But while the water is a necessary part of the ceremony, the water itself does not remain with us, once we receive the Holy Ghost our baptism is permanent.
We never loose our baptism, just as a marriage covenant is also permanent. What God hath joined, man may not put asunder.
Nothing we do can undo our baptism.
But as for an altar call, that is not permanent, it is a manmade tradition that only lasts as long as the person who makes the call desires to remain Christian. And to this end, there is no supernational effect to aid that condition. With baptism, we receive the Holy Ghost. With an altar call or other temporary (unBiblical) profession of faith, there is no reception of the Holy Ghost and therefore no permanent effect.
Outside of baptism, there is only lipservice.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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quote:
But Mike is that person who got married still married without the wedding ring?
Even if they cheat it is adulterey ,and that is because that person is still married!
yes they are still married with or without the wedding ring.. because the only way to get married is to be married... that is a sacrament/ritual like baptism.. wearing a ring would be more like continuing in the promise of the ritual.. ie going to mass living, a life of faith.
quote:
So the truth is a person can get married without the ring.
Also the same a person is saved without getting wet.
one love
a person cannot be married without being married. the ring is the faith of a marriage... your analogy should say that a person is saved without faith. getting wet is like getting married.. the opposite is getting cold feet.
mike
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
but the water is not the same as the ring. The ring is a decoration to wear after one is actually married as a sign that they are married. For it to be equivalent, we would have to constantly keep our baptismal water in a flask with us. This of course is not required. But while the water is a necessary part of the ceremony, the water itself does not remain with us, once we receive the Holy Ghost our baptism is permanent.
We never loose our baptism, just as a marriage covenant is also permanent. What God hath joined, man may not put asunder.
Nothing we do can undo our baptism.
But as for an altar call, that is not permanent, it is a manmade tradition that only lasts as long as the person who makes the call desires to remain Christian. And to this end, there is no supernational effect to aid that condition. With baptism, we receive the Holy Ghost. With an altar call or other temporary (unBiblical) profession of faith, there is no reception of the Holy Ghost and therefore no permanent effect.
Outside of baptism, there is only lipservice.
So the same way is with a water baptism getting wet on the outside as a sort of outside decoration as you have well said FAL!
One is actually saved when they believe with faith with thier heart, or is married with Jesus in the real world which is unseen and spiritual!
BTW Can you see a water baptism or is it spiritual unseen FAL?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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still missing the point. baptism is getting wet evan.. that is the ritual. if all you think it is is a getting wet ritual... which is really all that an evangelical believes it is then that's all you can do. your society rejects the ancient faith. for those of us who are part of the church... baptism isn't a getting wet ritual any more than marriage is a ring getting ritual.. to us both are spiritual grace we recieve through a visible sign. in both cases we do experience the physical, getting wet and getting a ring, but something deeper is going on there.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Calling Baptism "getting wet" is like calling being slain in the Spirit "fainting."
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
Calling Baptism "getting wet" is like calling being slain in the Spirit "fainting."
You won't go to hell for saying that, getting wet or fainting !
Maybe call it lip service!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Evangelist. The Bible does not say that we are saved once we believe with all our heart. We do not receive the Holy Ghost until we are Baptized.
I can love my husband with all my heart, but that does not mean that I am married to him. I was not married to my husband until I made that public declaration in front of my Faith community. At the very least witnesses are required.
You don't get it, in the Parable of the Sower, Jesus said that there would be many who would believe in Him with great zeal, but because the roots were not there, these would fall away to damnation. Loving God with all your heart is not real until you are ready to commit - that comes with Baptism.
Do you honestly believe that anyone can be saved without entering into the covenant with Christ? Do you believe that we can be saved without receiving the Holy Ghost?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist. The Bible does not say that we are saved once we believe with all our heart. We do not receive the Holy Ghost until we are Baptized.
I can love my husband with all my heart, but that does not mean that I am married to him. I was not married to my husband until I made that public declaration in front of my Faith community. At the very least witnesses are required.
You don't get it, in the Parable of the Sower, Jesus said that there would be many who would believe in Him with great zeal, but because the roots were not there, these would fall away to damnation. Loving God with all your heart is not real until you are ready to commit - that comes with Baptism.
Do you honestly believe that anyone can be saved without entering into the covenant with Christ? Do you believe that we can be saved without receiving the Holy Ghost?
The Holy Ghost comes as you believe FAL, it is invisible and comes in us not on us!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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i'm changing evans name to shirley mcclaine
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
i'm changing evans name to shirley mcclaine
If that make you happy you have a free will Mike, change what you will, even the grass to be blue as some do with thier backward belief systems!
one love Mike!
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 09/04/2009 06:17:17
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EvangelistShirley, the Holy Ghost comes upon us and enters into us. We become temples of the Holy Ghost - but this happens at baptism. The only case where this happens in any other way is with Cornelius and his household and only because God gave a sign so that they could be baptized.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 09/04/2009 16:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
EvangelistShirley, the Holy Ghost comes upon us and enters into us. We become temples of the Holy Ghost - but this happens at baptism. The only case where this happens in any other way is with Cornelius and his household and only because God gave a sign so that they could be baptized.
Show me where this doesn't happen in believing with faith!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Show me from the scriptures, other than Cornelius, that this EVER happened that a Christian received the Holy Ghost through belief only.
Every other example in the New Testament shows that the Holy Spirit did not come down except with the laying on of hands by a presbyter. Other than Cornelius and his Gentile household, no Christian received the Holy Ghost spontaneously.
Numerous examples were given already to show this, the onus is on you to provide evidence to the contrary. Once Gentiles were accepted into the New Covenant, there was no further need of a sign and so all subsequent Gentiles would have received the Holy Ghost in the same manner as the Samaritans and Jews - by baptism.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
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And the Ethiopian Eunuch, likely a Gentile also, was inspired by his belief to receive baptism. All who came to belief under the teaching of the Apostles desired baptism.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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