The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to
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Part 2 The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!Mike and many other RCC think if you are not baptized in water you are not saved.Salvation can only come by water baptism think many religious people.Not only the RCC but the church of Jesus Christ and more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/19/2009 13:58:35
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Did you read this closely Evan?
Why does this guy even mention the Eastern Orthodox? They have all seven sacraments. For the Orthodox to believe otherwise is heresy.
Anglicans and Lutherans also believe the same as do the majority of Protestants throughout the world. The only reason why some can have doubts is because they have no ultimate authority but themselves as individuals to design their own church.
Why does history show us that there was never a dispute about the nature of water baptism for over 1500 years? Was every Christian in the world fooled and only finally enlightened by one man, Huldrych Zwingli in the 1500's?
Let's look at your author's biblical references:
First of all, he needs to use the term ritual as a negative term to incite his intended audience, but the very word minister means liturgist which is one who performs the rites. Thus, he starts out by an appeal to the emotions of those who have been trained to recognize buzz words. He also wants to excuse others who believe in baptismal regeneration so that he can focus his hatred on the "cultic" Catholic Church. Amazing and dishonest. He should condemn all that practice such things, including every single Christian for the first 1500 years of the church.
The book of Galatians is a response by Paul to the false teachings of the Judaizers who were trying to force Christians to get circumcised and follow the Mosaic Law as a condition of being Christian. That's why he is stressing faith over "Works of the LAW" just as he did in Romans.
In fact Paul says those who fall for this false message and get circumcised will be cut off from Christ and fall from grace. A clear teaching that Christians can lose their justification.
Does Paul denounce baptism as a work of the Law in Galatians? No just the opposite, he distinguishes it from the Law:
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Baptism is the work of God which brings us into Christ.
Acts 15 isn't discussing baptism, because the subject again is the teaching of the Judaizers about forcing Gentiles to be circumcised, a very narrow issue. They make a ruling that circumcision is not necessary. Why did your author even bring this up as some sort of proof?? This is just another indication of the quality of people you cite as sources.
The Book of Hebrews says that we are moving on from the fundamentals of faith including various washings which includes baptism. It's clear that the subject is about sanctification that occurs after faith and baptism.
Romans says that we were buried with Christ in baptism. While that does have vivid imagery, it doesn't say that baptism represents being buried with Christ, but that we are buried with Christ in baptism. You and your author are the ones changing the literal meaning of scripture. No where does scripture say baptism is symbolic only. They sure spend a lot of time speaking of baptism in the NT for something that is nothing more than a ritual. By believing it is only symbolic, you turn it into a work of Law.
Your author is just another dime a dozen, wannabe internet preacher. Why you rely on these random articles exposes your desire to latch on to anything that supports your pre-digested doctrines.
The proof in the pudding is that you have no answer for Acts 2:38 and refuse to even offer a possibility that it means something other than what it so precisely says.
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Hello jdubya
So we are left with the clear conclusion that the two most heavily doctrinal books in the New Testament which reveal so much about how humans may - through the grace of God - attain salvation, never mention water baptism as a vital stage in the process without which there is no salvation.
We are bound to conclude that while those who come to faith in Christ should certainly be baptized in line with the clear New Testament example, water baptism is not essential for salvation; therefore, we must also conclude that the Holy Bible does not uphold the Roman Catholic and cultic doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
my source:
http://www.ukapologetics.net/1baptismal.htm
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 09/23/2009 08:10:34
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It is ironic that your source should choose Romans and Galations as his proof that baptism is not a vital stage in our salvation. On another of your threads [Eternal Redemption], I just cited both Romans and Galations as examples from Paul as to why Paul affirms that baptism is vital and why.
You should find sources that actually read their material before using it. I would not use that site as a source for what is in the Bible, the authors are so bound up in their man-made traditions that they are clueless as to what is in the scriptures.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 09/23/2009 11:57:39
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So by repeating what your author said, which I have already shown to be without merit, what is your point? Did you even read my response? When people have discussions it is generally assumed that they respond to each other. All you did was repost what your dishonest author said.
Can't you see the blatant attempt to excuse everyone who believes in baptismal regeneration so he can focus on the Catholic Church which has held this for 2000 years without ever wavering? Probably not, because your thinking is so perfectly aligned to his; full blinders on.
Again, you not only won't deal with Acts 2:38 and several others, but straight from the very books that are cited, Romans and Galatians.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Right here we have a straight forward teaching that tells us that those who have died with Christ will also be raised with Him. How does it say that we die with Him? Through Baptism, which is consistent throughout the scriptures - forgiveness of sins and receiving of the Holy Spirit (raised to new life). Again, a parallel teaching with John 3:5, Titus 3:5, Acts 2:38, etc., etc., and the example of Jesus's baptism.
Are our sins only symbolically forgiven? Are we raised to new life symbolically? Given a symbolic Holy Spirit?
Then again in Galatians:
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
These verses tie faith directly to baptism and says that baptism is the way in which we put on Christ and become heirs according to the promise, which shows that baptism is also the entrance into the New Covenant (the promise).
Your author just blew these off.
I thought that the rules of Sola Scriptura were that the literal meaning was supposed to be accepted unless it doesn't make sense.
What you are showing us is that when baptism is spoken of in dozens of passages, you take them as non-literal every time in violation of any kind of rules of scriptural exegesis.
You still have never shown anywhere in scripture where baptism is symbolic only or not necessary for salvation, while in many passages we have shown you that it is. So what good is Sola Scriptura? There are no rules for interpretation and that allows anyone to make up their own religion according to their own desires. The experiment is over and its proven to be nothing but a devisive and chaotic tool, scattering God's people into countless little groups.
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
It is ironic that your source should choose Romans and Galations as his proof that baptism is not a vital stage in our salvation. On another of your threads [Eternal Redemption], I just cited both Romans and Galations as examples from Paul as to why Paul affirms that baptism is vital and why.
You should find sources that actually read their material before using it. I would not use that site as a source for what is in the Bible, the authors are so bound up in their man-made traditions that they are clueless as to what is in the scriptures.
I agree with them 100%, but the author just put the truth of salvation in better writting than me.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Originally posted by jdubya
So by repeating what your author said, which I have already shown to be without merit, what is your point? Did you even read my response? When people have discussions it is generally assumed that they respond to each other. All you did was repost what your dishonest author said.
Can't you see the blatant attempt to excuse everyone who believes in baptismal regeneration so he can focus on the Catholic Church which has held this for 2000 years without ever wavering? Probably not, because your thinking is so perfectly aligned to his; full blinders on.
Again, you not only won't deal with Acts 2:38 and several others, but straight from the very books that are cited, Romans and Galatians.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Right here we have a straight forward teaching that tells us that those who have died with Christ will also be raised with Him. How does it say that we die with Him? Through Baptism, which is consistent throughout the scriptures - forgiveness of sins and receiving of the Holy Spirit (raised to new life). Again, a parallel teaching with John 3:5, Titus 3:5, Acts 2:38, etc., etc., and the example of Jesus's baptism.
Are our sins only symbolically forgiven? Are we raised to new life symbolically? Given a symbolic Holy Spirit?
Then again in Galatians:
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
These verses tie faith directly to baptism and says that baptism is the way in which we put on Christ and become heirs according to the promise, which shows that baptism is also the entrance into the New Covenant (the promise).
Your author just blew these off.
I thought that the rules of Sola Scriptura were that the literal meaning was supposed to be accepted unless it doesn't make sense.
What you are showing us is that when baptism is spoken of in dozens of passages, you take them as non-literal every time in violation of any kind of rules of scriptural exegesis.
You still have never shown anywhere in scripture where baptism is symbolic only or not necessary for salvation, while in many passages we have shown you that it is. So what good is Sola Scriptura? There are no rules for interpretation and that allows anyone to make up their own religion according to their own desires. The experiment is over and its proven to be nothing but a devisive and chaotic tool, scattering God's people into countless little groups.
How do you know what is water baptism and what is other baptism like the blood of jesus baptism, spiritual baptism and etc?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
There is only one baptism and it is being baptized in the blood of Jesus and into His death, such that rebirth occurs. The normative way is what we see in Acts 2:38 and scores of other places. That is water and spirit baptism. We also acknowledge the God is not bound by His sacraments. Thus one who wasn't previously water baptized can die a martyr's death and receive baptism by blood. There is also a baptism by desire. After all, it is God who baptizes us, so to refuse water baptism if the opportunity is present is to refuse the Holy Spirit and say "No Thanks" to God's free gift.
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
It is ironic that your source should choose Romans and Galations as his proof that baptism is not a vital stage in our salvation. On another of your threads [Eternal Redemption], I just cited both Romans and Galations as examples from Paul as to why Paul affirms that baptism is vital and why.
You should find sources that actually read their material before using it. I would not use that site as a source for what is in the Bible, the authors are so bound up in their man-made traditions that they are clueless as to what is in the scriptures.
I agree with them 100%, but the author just put the truth of salvation in better writting than me.
one love
I do not doubt that you agree with them, but they are wrong about both Romans and Galations and baptism in general. Just because you agree with them does not make them right.
They do not have the Truth about salvation and if they persist on this wayward path, they may never know it.
Luke 17:1-2 "Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come!
Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
Please keep in mind that this passage is connected to and falls on the heels of the the latter verses in Chapter 16. Please read to get the proper context.
And make no mistake, this example is for us Christians not for the OT followers. It may apply to them, but it applies even more so for us who have God's Law written upon our hearts.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
There is only one baptism and it is being baptized in the blood of Jesus and into His death, such that rebirth occurs. The normative way is what we see in Acts 2:38 and scores of other places. That is water and spirit baptism. We also acknowledge the God is not bound by His sacraments. Thus one who wasn't previously water baptized can die a martyr's death and receive baptism by blood. There is also a baptism by desire. After all, it is God who baptizes us, so to refuse water baptism if the opportunity is present is to refuse the Holy Spirit and say "No Thanks" to God's free gift.
So saying no to a getting wet is saying yes to hell and no to heaven according to your philosophy??
Is the blood baptism more rquired than a outward water baptism, or are you claim there is not one baptism after all but really two and more according to RCC???
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 09/26/2009 11:57:38
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So saying no to a getting wet is saying yes to hell and no to heaven according to your phijosophy??
what reason can you offer that a person would reject baptism unless they really don't have faith? only a divisive brother would spend their time trying to find ways to say no to something even jesus said to do. this is no different than a man trying to get out of marriage by saying we don't really need a "ring exchanging ceremony" to be married. is that person really committed?
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
There is only one baptism and it is being baptized in the blood of Jesus and into His death, such that rebirth occurs. The normative way is what we see in Acts 2:38 and scores of other places. That is water and spirit baptism. We also acknowledge the God is not bound by His sacraments. Thus one who wasn't previously water baptized can die a martyr's death and receive baptism by blood. There is also a baptism by desire. After all, it is God who baptizes us, so to refuse water baptism if the opportunity is present is to refuse the Holy Spirit and say "No Thanks" to God's free gift.
So saying no to a getting wet is saying yes to hell and no to heaven according to your phijosophy??
Is the blood baptism more rquired than a outward water baptism, or are you claim there is not one baptism after all but really two and more according to RCC???
one love
Not my philosophy, but straight from scripture and understood that way for 2,000 years.
Really, Evan, why should I or anyone else start practicing a 20th century religion? That's what you are suggesting.
Please do some research and find the first time in history that someone called Christian Baptism a human work, external work and most blasphemous of all "getting wet". You won't find it in the bible, or anywhere throughout the history of the church, so you have to rely exclusively on 20th century philosophers and recent traditions of men.
If you are comfortable believing that God held back the truth on the most fundamental issue of being born again, that sounds like a pretty weak God and not the God who promised to lead His church to all truth.
Every time God made a new creation, we see His use of real water and Spirit.
1.) The first creation - the Spirit hovered over the waters...
2.) The flood of Noah - the water of the flood and the dove.
Peter refers to this as a type of baptism, a shadow and copy of the new reality:
1Pe 3:20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
3.) The Exodus - the water's of the Red Sea and the pillar of fire by night and the cloud by day. Paul shows that this was also a type of the new baptism in his warning to the Corinthians that just because they were baptized and partook of the spiritual food and drink (the Eucharist), that they could still fall just like the Jews in the desert who had types of these things:
1Cor 10:1 I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 and all ate the same supernatural food
4 and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless with most of them God was not pleased; for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things are warnings for us, not to desire evil as they did.
7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to dance."
8 We must not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.
9 We must not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.
11 Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come.
12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.
Again we see the shadows and copies in the OT contrasted with the fulfilled realities in the NT.
Then.....
4.) Ezekiel's prophecy of the New Covenant - I will sprikle clean water on you.... and put My Spirit within you.
5.) Jesus's baptism - came up from the water and the spirit descended upon Him like a dove. This is the example of Christian baptism for all of us and shown over and over again in the NT in the teachings of Jesus and all over the book of Acts and elsewhere.
6.) Jesus teaching to Nicodemus about being born again of water and spirit, then asking Nicodemus (a Jewish sage) why he didn't understand what had been prophesied in the Old Testament:
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
7.) In Titus we also see a perfect parallel to John 3:5
Tts 3:5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing (loutrou or bath) of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
Any reference to Ezekiel 36 and John 3 here?
8.) And again on the day of Pentecost when the power of the Holy Spirit came:
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him."
40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."
41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Again, another perfect parallel to Ezekiel 36, John 3, Titus 3 and carrying out what Jesus commanded the apostles to do. The Jews here were convicted of their sins by Peter's preaching and their reaction made it clear that they believed.
Peter did not say you don't need to be baptized or "get wet" and he didn't say "You've got it brothers, you are now saved". No, in fact he told them to save themselves from the wicked generation after they believed and their souls were only added to the rolls of the church (and heaven) after they were baptized.
Again, if you had any credibility on this subject, you would jump at the opportunity to show us what this passage really means, but we have heard nothing but crickets from you.
9.) Jesus commanding His Apostles to make disciples by baptizing them
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
It is baptism that makes a disciple, because it is done by God through His church. It is not your own work of belief, otherwise Jesus could have said make disciples of all nations by making them believers.
In Mark's account:
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Again belief is not enough because it is your work or response to the Gospel, not God's gift. You can try to manipulate this passage however you want, but a non believer will not seek baptism. If Jesus wanted to teach faith alone, he would have said only "he who believes will be saved", but He didn't.
10.) Becoming part of the body of Christ, the church
Eph 5:24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
Christ cleansed those of His church by the washing (loutro or bath) of water with the word (Rhemati - utterance, declaration or spoken word, logos is not used here. Most likely is referring to the declaration "In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit").
1Cr 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Here again we see baptism in the name of (the authority of) the Lord Jesus and in the Spirit and it's effects (sanctified and justified simultaneously). We see no mention of belief, but mention only of the washing (baptism) which is the point of their being justified.
These passages and all dozens more that we've already shown as well as the consistent teaching of the church (never even given a second thought or challenged), shows that you are the one that has to make the case that baptism is not part of the salvific plan.
The true heretics message is that one does not need baptism to be saved which isn't found anywhere in the bible. I can't imagine a subject any more thoroughly explained and prohpesied in scripture. It is simply the modern gnostics raising their heads again and hopefully they will (their false teachings) disappear into the abyss where it belongs.
One reason I love being Catholic is because we use the entirety of scripture and not bits and pieces that put other passages in conflict with each other. We can reconcile the whole of scripture whereas others just gloss over the conflicts that they create, or force untenable interpretations to cover the mess they've made.
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
So saying no to a getting wet is saying yes to hell and no to heaven according to your phijosophy??
what reason can you offer that a person would reject baptism unless they really don't have faith? only a divisive brother would spend their time trying to find ways to say no to something even jesus said to do. this is no different than a man trying to get out of marriage by saying we don't really need a "ring exchanging ceremony" to be married. is that person really committed?
Before men maybe not , and it might be a bad fruit of love, but the true gospel of Christ is unconditional!
The relationship in the spirit is important to God!
God looks at our hearts which is the root and seed , the rest is fruits that men and your self will see sooner or latter.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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If the spirit is good, then we will produce good fruits. But if we have denied The Holy Spirit, then our own spirits are fallow and will not produce good fruits.
Men justjudge by money and health and the appearance of miracles, but God sees what we do in secret - giving money to the poor, feeding the hungry, consoling the sorrowful.
Jesus warned that evil does not come from without, but from within. If we do evil it is because it is on our hearts, and that is what God sees, even when men do not.
[edited for clarification - wrong word used in original]
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 09/27/2009 09:12:46
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Before men maybe not , and it might be a bad fruit of love, but the true gospel of Christ is unconditional!
look evan.. if a man is unfaithful before men then he is also unfaithful before god. it's true that the gospel is unconditional.. but that doesn't mean it's an excuse for rejecting important parts of the gospel as given by christ. if baptism is just a thing we do before men then god knows our heart but even if thats the only reason you got baptized it still would be an excuse for anyone else to reject baptism. if a man was unfaithful in marriage is that an excuse for other men to not bother to get married?
quote:
The relationship in the spirit is important to God!
God looks at our hearts which is the root and seed , the rest is fruits that men and your self will see sooner or latter.
one love
of course the relationship with god is important and that relationship must be part of all our life... that's what makes baptism a sacrament instead of a dead work. to reject baptism is a sign of a dead relationship and only an antichrist would deny baptism and tell others it's not necessary even though Jesus himself said to do it.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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John 15 shows what a relationship with Christ looks like. Note especially verses 14 and 16:
"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
This is a true relationship - He does and we do. Not He does and we don't.
Note also verse 2:
"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
The branch that does not bear fruit is taken away - not to Heaven, verse 6 makes that very clear:
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned."
If we abide in Christ and produce good fruit, we will be pruned and tended (as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling), but that is not the same as being cut off and cast into the fire (Hell).
But Christ also gives us the Good News in this chapter, see verses 4 and 5:
"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."
We are expected to bring forth fruit, but we do this with Christ. He is our support. Alone we cannot do this, but with Christ we can. But an important part of the message is that WE are the ones who are to produce the fruit (do the works). Those who do not produce good fruits have not developed a relationship with Christ. They are still wrapped up within themselves.
Jesus Christ is The Way, not just the destination. If we want to see Him in Heaven, we need to Follow Him here on earth. That means doing what He showed us to do, and obeying His commandments.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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