The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to
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Part 2 The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!Mike and many other RCC think if you are not baptized in water you are not saved.Salvation can only come by water baptism think many religious people.Not only the RCC but the church of Jesus Christ and more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/19/2009 13:58:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
If the spirit is good, then we will produce good fruits. But if we have denied The Holy Spirit, then our own spirits are fallow and will not produce good fruits.
Men justjudge by money and health and the appearance of miracles, but God sees what we do in secret - giving money to the poor, feeding the hungry, consoling the sorrowful.
Jesus warned that evil does not come from without, but from within. If we do evil it is because it is on our hearts, and that is what God sees, even when men do not.
[edited for clarification - wrong word used in original]
All good things come from above and the born again spirit comes brand new from above, but getting our mind renewed will bring good fruits better and better , but never arrive like our born again spirits!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
That part is basically true. Our sanctification is a process, which includes the renewing of our mind. And our fruits may improve over time as we become perfected. But our "born again spirits" do not "arrive" when we are born again. Our spirit is with us when we are conceived, and it is affected when WE (not just our spirit) is born from above.
When we are born again, we receive the Holy Ghost which is not our born again spirit, but God's Spirit that comes to dwell within us. The Holy Ghost bears witness with our spirit, but is not our spirit. I think that you sometimes confuse the two.
Those who are in Christ will produce good fruits.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 09/27/2009 16:35:57
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
That part is basically true. Our sanctification is a process, which includes the renewing of our mind. And our fruits may improve over time as we become perfected. But our "born again spirits" do not "arrive" when we are born again. Our spirit is with us when we are conceived, and it is affected when WE (not just our spirit) is born from above.
When we are born again, we receive the Holy Ghost which is not our born again spirit, but God's Spirit that comes to dwell within us. The Holy Ghost bears witness with our spirit, but is not our spirit. I think that you sometimes confuse the two.
Those who are in Christ will produce good fruits.
I don't think you know what get born again FAL
what is the meaning of born again to you??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
To be born again is to be born from above - the word that Jesus used was a double-entendre (dual=meaning). When we were first born, we were made in the image and likeness of God - we had a physical body, an intellect and a spirit. When we are baptized, we are cleansed of our sins and become new creatures in Christ - members of His Body. We receive the Holy Ghost at this time - just as it is shown in the scriptures, and just as Christ promised - and therefore become temples of the Holy Ghost.
Peter and Paul both liken us to seeds that must die before growing into our incorruptible bodies.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
To be born again is to be born from above - the word that Jesus used was a double-entendre (dual=meaning). When we were first born, we were made in the image and likeness of God - we had a physical body, an intellect and a spirit. When we are baptized, we are cleansed of our sins and become new creatures in Christ - members of His Body. We receive the Holy Ghost at this time - just as it is shown in the scriptures, and just as Christ promised - and therefore become temples of the Holy Ghost.
Peter and Paul both liken us to seeds that must die before growing into our incorruptible bodies.
Is water baptism an inward work or outward work??
How do you know you have the Holy Spirit when being baptized, what evedence show you didn't get wet and you are also filled with the Holy Spirit as promise to us according to Act 2??
BTW thank you for telling me what your philosophy of being born again means to you FAL!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
FAL do you know that a righteous , holy , justified person is still righteous because of Christ alone without a water baptism???
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
To be born again is to be born from above - the word that Jesus used was a double-entendre (dual=meaning). When we were first born, we were made in the image and likeness of God - we had a physical body, an intellect and a spirit. When we are baptized, we are cleansed of our sins and become new creatures in Christ - members of His Body. We receive the Holy Ghost at this time - just as it is shown in the scriptures, and just as Christ promised - and therefore become temples of the Holy Ghost.
Peter and Paul both liken us to seeds that must die before growing into our incorruptible bodies.
Is water baptism an inward work or outward work??
How do you know you have the Holy Spirit when being baptized, what evedence show you didn't get wet and you are also filled with the Holy Spirit as promise to us according to Act 2??
BTW thank you for telling me what your philosophy of being born again means to you FAL!
one love
Baptism is a work of Christ. It is a sacrament which is an outward sign of an inward grace, instituted by Christ.
We do get wet at our baptism, but it is not the getting wet that matters so much but rather what it brings. Jesus did not need to be baptized for the remission of His own sins, He demanded that John the Baptist baptize Him so that He could change baptism into a sacrament. Or did you think that Jesus was just putting on a show?
I know that I received the Holy Ghost at my baptism for two reasons. First, the Bible said that I would (Acts 2:38); and second, the Holy Ghost has been at work in me my whole life. Philippians 2:12-13 has always struck a cord with me, because I have felt it so strongly in my life. Even when I tried to pull away and do my own thing, God always called me back, even after long periods of time - this call came from within and I knew in my heart that it was the Holy Ghost.
And I found the more that I listened to the Holy Ghost, the better things became and the closer I got to God.
In the beginning it was a struggle, but the more I listened the easier everything became.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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PM
Member since 06/26/2002
yes baptism is a work of christ... which means it's a gift to us. if christ died on the cross so that we could and should be baptized to enter into his covenant then thats all i need. any person claiming to be a christian who rejects baptism probably isn't a christian or is just so caught up in "christian sophism" trying to make themselves appear better than the rest of us sheep that they have lost sight of the gospel they claim to be preaching.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
To be born again is to be born from above - the word that Jesus used was a double-entendre (dual=meaning). When we were first born, we were made in the image and likeness of God - we had a physical body, an intellect and a spirit. When we are baptized, we are cleansed of our sins and become new creatures in Christ - members of His Body. We receive the Holy Ghost at this time - just as it is shown in the scriptures, and just as Christ promised - and therefore become temples of the Holy Ghost.
Peter and Paul both liken us to seeds that must die before growing into our incorruptible bodies.
Is water baptism an inward work or outward work??
How do you know you have the Holy Spirit when being baptized, what evedence show you didn't get wet and you are also filled with the Holy Spirit as promise to us according to Act 2??
BTW thank you for telling me what your philosophy of being born again means to you FAL!
one love
Baptism is a work of Christ. It is a sacrament which is an outward sign of an inward grace, instituted by Christ.
We do get wet at our baptism, but it is not the getting wet that matters so much but rather what it brings. Jesus did not need to be baptized for the remission of His own sins, He demanded that John the Baptist baptize Him so that He could change baptism into a sacrament. Or did you think that Jesus was just putting on a show?
I know that I received the Holy Ghost at my baptism for two reasons. First, the Bible said that I would (Acts 2:38); and second, the Holy Ghost has been at work in me my whole life. Philippians 2:12-13 has always struck a cord with me, because I have felt it so strongly in my life. Even when I tried to pull away and do my own thing, God always called me back, even after long periods of time - this call came from within and I knew in my heart that it was the Holy Ghost.
And I found the more that I listened to the Holy Ghost, the better things became and the closer I got to God.
In the beginning it was a struggle, but the more I listened the easier everything became.
So when you got baptized a suüpernatural thing happen like when you take the eucharist?
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
It's called being born again the bible way.
Is grace supernatural or just something you can earn by believing?
Since humans can't forgive their own sins, what kind of action does it take to do this?
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Grace is supernatural. And we are all given one form of Grace whether we believe or not, this Grace is sufficient for all to come to faith. Not all will of course, but not due to any failure on God's part.
The Sacraments instituted by Christ also confer Grace, and yes it is supernatural. The Bible shows us, repeatedly, that baptism with water confers the Holy Ghost, but this is not something we earn, it is a gift that is bestowed upon us.
Simon made the mistake of thinking that this power was a commodity that could be purchased from the Apostles. But while the power does flow through them because of their ordination, but the power comes from God. Man cannot buy and sell this power, it is given only through the means established by Christ.
Acts 14:23 "And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed."
1 Timothy 4:14 "Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."
Ironically, you follow a group that speaks of the "anointing" with self-professed "apostles" laying hands on new members entering the rank of "apostle" - as was done with Todd Bentley. And yet you have trouble with the concept of someone is is lawfully ordained (anointed) to ministry being able to confer the Holy Ghost at Baptism or confect the Eucharist at Mass.
Why are visible/carnal signs and wonders so necessary for you? Why do you have such trouble accepting the supernatural miracles that Jesus gave to His believers?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
i think that is the real issue.. baptism to us is a sacrament and that means it is a supernatural thing. real grace real gift. for you baptism can only be a dead work because you think it is merely a 'getting wet ritual'. the problem i see isn't so much that we believe differently but rather that to believe baptism is just a bath and a dead work you have to believe that jesus taught dead works because he said to baptize, and ever evangelical that actually gets baptized while knowing it is just a dead work/ordinance/or whatever... is not being consistent with their own beliefs about works. for the catholic this is not an issue because we don't believe it is a work, brownie point, or anything that evangelicals accuse us of believing.. to us it is a sacrament, which means that the work in it was done by christ and is now a gift for us to recieve. grace.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
It's called being born again the bible way.
Is grace supernatural or just something you can earn by believing?
Since humans can't forgive their own sins, what kind of action does it take to do this?
You just recieve the gift by faith, that easy, and it is not about earning or working for it with some kind of a religious performance or show!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
The Gift is Faith. But Salvation requires a response on our part.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
It's called being born again the bible way.
Is grace supernatural or just something you can earn by believing?
Since humans can't forgive their own sins, what kind of action does it take to do this?
BEING BORN AGAIN IS AN ACCEPTING!
It is taking what is yours already so the taking is the action and that is done by trust and faith!
The rest what happens is just fruits!, but not the roots.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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