The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to
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Part 2 The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!Mike and many other RCC think if you are not baptized in water you are not saved.Salvation can only come by water baptism think many religious people.Not only the RCC but the church of Jesus Christ and more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/19/2009 13:58:35
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We are "born again" when we are baptized. Why are you not able to accept this very basic Biblical concept?
This is how we accept the New Covenant. Baptism is the means by which we enter the New Covenant just as circumcision was how others entered the Old Covenant.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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PM
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And you still need to deal with Acts 2:38 and with Acts 19:1-7. Faith comes first, but entering the Covenant reguires a real response, not just a general assent without any commitment on our part.
A covenant is not one-way street. If it were, all would be saved.
Luke 13:23-28 "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out."
Many claim to be Christian, basque in Christ's glow, and preach easy grace. But, Jesus warns us, this is not how we get to Heaven.
We must strive to enter by the straight gate, not take the "easy way" as so many others will try to do.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 10/10/2009 14:33:08
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
We are "born again" when we are baptized. Why are you not able to accept this very basic Biblical concept?
This is how we accept the New Covenant. Baptism is the means by which we enter the New Covenant just as circumcision was how others entered the Old Covenant.
they both are works FAL, and that is why grace and faith is greater!
Your belief put the cart before the horse!
the born again life begins in your heart not your washing of your skin!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 10/12/2009 12:43:14
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
And you still need to deal with Acts 2:38 and with Acts 19:1-7. Faith comes first, but entering the Covenant reguires a real response, not just a general assent without any commitment on our part.
A covenant is not one-way street. If it were, all would be saved.
Luke 13:23-28 "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out."
Many claim to be Christian, basque in Christ's glow, and preach easy grace. But, Jesus warns us, this is not how we get to Heaven.
We must strive to enter by the straight gate, not take the "easy way" as so many others will try to do.
Is working to get into the covenant a root or fruit FAL?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
And Peter tells us that water baptism is not the same as a bath that removes dirt from the skin, so why do you refuse to accept the word of Sacred Scripture?
It is spiritual and it is accomplished with water. The Bible shows this over and over again. How many times does it need to be repeated before you accept it.
Deal with this one verse before you write another word on this subject:
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
It is through water baptism that our sins are washed away and we receive the Holy Ghost.
Peter says to be baptized, not just believe and let the Holy Ghost baptize you.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
And Peter tells us that water baptism is not the same as a bath that removes dirt from the skin, so why do you refuse to accept the word of Sacred Scripture?
It is spiritual and it is accomplished with water. The Bible shows this over and over again. How many times does it need to be repeated before you accept it.
Deal with this one verse before you write another word on this subject:
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
It is through water baptism that our sins are washed away and we receive the Holy Ghost.
Peter says to be baptized, not just believe and let the Holy Ghost baptize you.
Read your verse act 2 again fal in contexts!
Peter has it right by saying first and setting the seed or roots as repent and he said this as standing alone, and then said second get baptized not the other way around as you think.
Repent is being sorry for your sins in your heart, and to do that you must believe , and after belief , and repenting with you heart , you will sooner or latter get baptized because the spiritual was taken care of first, does that make more biblical sense to you FAL with that verse you quoted?
Then third the Holy Ghost will come by laying on of hands or as you come out the water.
Also in the first part of repentance the blood of Jesus is included to wash away your sins when you repent spiritually, so how many times must Jesus wash away your sins spiritually two times, first by repentance and again by water because Jesus blood was not strong enough or holy enough??
Do you see how your teaching make the baptism requirement a heretic message FAL?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 10/13/2009 01:52:57
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PM
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No. Because if Peter had meant to say what you suggested, Peter would have stated it that way. And the proof is still Acts 19. These men had already repented of their sins and accepted Christ, and believed, but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until after being baptized by Paul.
Try again.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
For a guy who wants me to go by the Bible alone, you sure like to twist things around. Why can you not accept Peter at his word. Acts 2:38 is straightforward, and yet to interpret it, you reversed the order in order to get what you wanted with no contextual consideration or any other Biblical support whatsoever.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
No. Because if Peter had meant to say what you suggested, Peter would have stated it that way. And the proof is still Acts 19. These men had already repented of their sins and accepted Christ, and believed, but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until after being baptized by Paul.
Try again.
When did they believe and repented of their sins after they got baptized or before??
I am talking about their repenting and believing not about when they recieved the Holy Ghost.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
For a guy who wants me to go by the Bible alone, you sure like to twist things around. Why can you not accept Peter at his word. Acts 2:38 is straightforward, and yet to interpret it, you reversed the order in order to get what you wanted with no contextual consideration or any other Biblical support whatsoever.
I am the one asking you the question how you get your interpretation which is not there and is backwards bible interpretation and taken out of contexts and changed into a RC theology!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
For a guy who wants me to go by the Bible alone, you sure like to twist things around. Why can you not accept Peter at his word. Acts 2:38 is straightforward, and yet to interpret it, you reversed the order in order to get what you wanted with no contextual consideration or any other Biblical support whatsoever.
I am the one asking you the question how you get your interpretation which is not there and is backwards bible interpretation and taken out of contexts and changed into a RC theology!
one love
You are the one who reversed the order of that passage.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
No. Because if Peter had meant to say what you suggested, Peter would have stated it that way. And the proof is still Acts 19. These men had already repented of their sins and accepted Christ, and believed, but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until after being baptized by Paul.
Try again.
When did they believe and repented of their sins after they got baptized or before??
I am talking about their repenting and believing not about when they recieved the Holy Ghost.
one love
Silly question. They did this before they were baptized. That is not the issue. We must do this first. But the question was do we need to be baptized? And Brother in Christ, you do not get to be in the Body of Christ until your sins are washed away in Baptism.
Repenting is your part, baptism is God's part. You repent of your sins then God forgives you at your baptism.
Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
See, this is Paul recounting his own conversion. Baptized, wash away sins. How simple is that?
And let us go back to the event itself as described in Acts 9.
Acts 9:17-18 "17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."
Ananias told Saul/Paul that Paul would receive his sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost (future tense), and the very next thing that happens? Paul received his sight, stood up and was baptized.
Where is the Holy Ghost that Ananias promised???? Right there when Paul got Baptised, just as it happened in Acts 19 and a other places.
Why do you feel the need to make things complicated?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Fifth Member
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Location: USA
Evan,
I'm glad you finally have at least made an attempt to discuss Acts 2:38 after months of us pleading for you to do so. Frankly I can now see why you have avoided trying to give an interpretation, because its clear you won't (and can't) accept its meaning.
First remember this. The RC didn't need to twist anything, because all Christians from the beginning knew exactly what this verse meant and never protested its meaning until the post reformation era over 1500 years later. Actually those who eventually protested in the 16th century, didn't let scripture get in the way of their opinions. Its called the either/or mentality. The same problem is in effect today with many Protestants. "Well if it is by faith, then how can it then be by baptism or anything else." they say. The answer is the bible wasn't written with a Northern European way of thinking.
In Acts 2:38 Peter commands the Jews to repent AND every one of you be baptized for (Greek: eis) the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The text is straight forward: They must repent AND be baptized (both actions are required). The result is forgiveness of sins AND the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The two actions precede the two results. We know this becuase the word FOR, which is eis in Greek always means into or unto. Its a basic word that is not open to interpretation.
One Calvinist scholar who obviously had theological problems with this, tried to say that he found three instances (out of hundreds of uses) where the word eis might be translated also as "because of". The first problem with that is no one had ever attempted to make this case. This is how people attempt to salvage their theology when they can't accept the clearest of scriptural texts and a word as basic as eis. Trying to substitute the meaning of a simple word because something else might work in its place is to do violence to the text and clearly eisegesis (reading INTO the text). It's similar to seeing the word dog and deciding to interpret it as elephant.
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
For a guy who wants me to go by the Bible alone, you sure like to twist things around. Why can you not accept Peter at his word. Acts 2:38 is straightforward, and yet to interpret it, you reversed the order in order to get what you wanted with no contextual consideration or any other Biblical support whatsoever.
I am the one asking you the question how you get your interpretation which is not there and is backwards bible interpretation and taken out of contexts and changed into a RC theology!
one love
You are the one who reversed the order of that passage.
It is very different from a Roman interpretation!
I didn't change the verse , I don't have a book of mormon or a JHW society new world bible or a koran!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
No. Because if Peter had meant to say what you suggested, Peter would have stated it that way. And the proof is still Acts 19. These men had already repented of their sins and accepted Christ, and believed, but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until after being baptized by Paul.
Try again.
When did they believe and repented of their sins after they got baptized or before??
I am talking about their repenting and believing not about when they recieved the Holy Ghost.
one love
Silly question. They did this before they were baptized. That is not the issue. We must do this first. But the question was do we need to be baptized? And Brother in Christ, you do not get to be in the Body of Christ until your sins are washed away in Baptism.
Repenting is your part, baptism is God's part. You repent of your sins then God forgives you at your baptism.
Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
See, this is Paul recounting his own conversion. Baptized, wash away sins. How simple is that?
And let us go back to the event itself as described in Acts 9.
Acts 9:17-18 "17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."
Ananias told Saul/Paul that Paul would receive his sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost (future tense), and the very next thing that happens? Paul received his sight, stood up and was baptized.
Where is the Holy Ghost that Ananias promised???? Right there when Paul got Baptised, just as it happened in Acts 19 and a other places.
Why do you feel the need to make things complicated?
Notice what came first and what order the bible says it come!
hearing, believing using faith by accepting what they believe and then the roots from all this should be getting baptized , going to church prayer, read the bible and other religious stuff you want to do.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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