The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to
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Part 2 The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!Mike and many other RCC think if you are not baptized in water you are not saved.Salvation can only come by water baptism think many religious people.Not only the RCC but the church of Jesus Christ and more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/19/2009 13:58:35
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Evan, this is nothing like the Jehovah's use of 'a' god in John 1:1.
The reason you keep bringing this up can only be to deflect the arguments. We are not the 150 year old JHW's, we are not the 20th century WOF movement, We are not one of the 30,000+ flavors of Protestantism, we are the 2,000 year old Church which has always taught the same thing concerning baptism. We didn't change the meaning. You can't find anyone who even attempts to make a case that baptism is purely symbolic until Zwingli in the 16th century. Even then, the idea that baptism is just getting wet is a 20th century invention.
I'm am not the one who needed to appeal to Greek in Acts 2:38. The English translation in almost every version I've seen is straight forward. It is those who won't accept the the literal meaning that have appealed to the Greek to find a way out. The problem with this is that the Greek language and construction of Acts 2:38 reinforces what we see in English versions. It confirms the order of events and is so rock solid that it can't be manipulated, even by those posing as scholars.
You know that it isn't just this one word 'eis'. Please go back and read this thread over again look at the dozens and dozens of scripture passages we've brought forward, from Prophecy in the OT, water and spirit references throughout the OT, to Jesus own baptism, to every example in Acts (except Cornelius) to direct statements that Baptism saves (cf. Mar 16:16, 1Peter 3:21).
You never see it called a symbol only or getting wet, or an outward sign of a pre-existing inward reality. Never do you see it called a work of the Law which obligates us to follow the whole Law of Moses like circumcision did. Yet, these are common, unbiblical slogans from the anti-baptism crowd.
I can't think of many other subjects that are so thoroughly covered in the bible, yet only gnostic thinking could deny baptismal regeneration.
Acts 2:38 is a huge problem for some Protestant scholars. The reason they have tried to look for alternate interpretations is because they can't accept it according to their a priori doctrines. What results is unprofessional manipulation as a means to an end. All who do such things without precedence lose any credibility they might have otherwise had.
We've shown you instances where people believe and haven't received the Holy Spirit and that is key, because the Holy Spirit is our evidence, our seal, our covenental promise, our down payment towards heaven. If you have not received the Holy Spirit, you have not been regenerated and therefore have not been 'saved'.
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quote:
Just one question are you saying the proof that water baptismal is required is just because of this one word misused as such (for)???
No. Because Jesus taught it. The Apostles practiced it. And the Church has been upholding for nearly 2000 years.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Just one question are you saying the proof that water baptismal is required is just because of this one word misused as such (for)???
No. Because Jesus taught it. The Apostles practiced it. And the Church has been upholding for nearly 2000 years.
Including the Apostal Paul?
Did Apostle Paul baptized everyone he preach too, or came too belief by Him??
BTW i
sence you said No! you need to talk to Jdubya!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 10/18/2009 17:38:20
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Evan,
I can guarantee I agree completely with FAL and she is in total agreement with me and the church.
Do you see anyone in the NT who is baptized that doesn't believe? How did they come to believe?
Believing does not make one born again. Jesus told us that just before He spoke of baptism, which is from God, not man.
What do you think we've been debating for 17 pages?
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Paul ensured that everyone he taught was baptized. Acts 19 shows this in action. These were Christians that he had just met and yet he felt compelled to ask them if they had received the Holy Ghost, and when they said they hadn't, Paul made sure that they were properly instructed and baptized into Christ so that they did receive the Holy Ghost.
If Paul could not go two minutes without ensuring that men he had minimal contact with were properly baptized then I can safely state without hesitation that Paul was very strong in his views on Baptism (as clearly demonstrated in his letters on the topic) and very much taught that baptism was essential.
How can you possibly say otherwise? Have you not read the Scriptures for yourself?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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that's the big question.... did evan read the bible? and if he did which christians does the bible say were not baptized? where does it say that baptism is not needed? that all comes from the modern dairy queen gospel that he is into... not from the church or the bible.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Originally posted by jdubya
Evan,
I can guarantee I agree completely with FAL and she is in total agreement with me and the church.
Do you see anyone in the NT who is baptized that doesn't believe? How did they come to believe?
Believing does not make one born again. Jesus told us that just before He spoke of baptism, which is from God, not man.
What do you think we've been debating for 17 pages?
believing means to me a trusting ,a knowing the truth!
that with faith with your heart make the spiritual work to be born again to from above!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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yes, so i trust jesus when he said to be baptized and know that because he said it, it must be truth. that makes the spiritual work in baptism real and not just a dead work of the flesh like evangelical societies do in their churchy's...
mike
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Originally posted by mikejuli
yes, so i trust jesus when he said to be baptized and know that because he said it, it must be truth. that makes the spiritual work in baptism real and not just a dead work of the flesh like evangelical societies do in their churchy's...
mike
Yes! the old rituals was a must and requirements.
Why don't you just follow the whole commandmemnet and rules and continue to make animal sacrafices work Mike!
At the same time throw out grace and mercy out the window like you are doing.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
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So Baptism is still a ritual cleansing even though Peter said specifically that is not and yet saves?
Wow, the shadows and copies are still the shadows and copies, and take up a lot of useless space in the NT.
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Evangelist, why do you think that the fulfillment of the Old Covenant shadows are still the Old Covenant? What they had and did was only a shadow of what the Catholic Church has and does. Christ gave us everything that the Old Covenant only hinted at.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
So Baptism is still a ritual cleansing even though Peter said specifically that is not and yet saves?
Wow, the shadows and copies are still the shadows and copies, and take up a lot of useless space in the NT.
You are becoming also a hebrew scholar wwwooww!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
One does not need to be a Hebrew scholar to see what is plain in the New Testament.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
Yes! the old rituals was a must and requirements.
Why don't you just follow the whole commandmemnet and rules and continue to make animal sacrafices work Mike!
are you serious? because jesus paid for all that on the cross... now we trust in his sacrifice which we have available to us through the sacraments..... rules and regs are things you find in evangelical churches. sacraments are found in the catholic church.. the difference is that sacraments are instituted by christ and evangelical rules and regs are not. when evangelicals tell you that you cannot smoke and be a christian then you should tell them to sacrifice an animal... but when christ says to baptize i wouldn't tell him that's like sacrificing an animal... you can.
quote:
At the same time throw out grace and mercy out the window like you are doing.
one love
nope.. not doing that either... i mean it's easy for you to say such a thing.. but again the facts are not there. catholics are probably the only christians i know who actually understand grace and mercy... because we still repent of our sins... there is no need for grace and mercy in a belief that says "your born again spirit cannot sin"... is there?
at the rate your going you may as well throw the whole bible out your window.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
Yes! the old rituals was a must and requirements.
Why don't you just follow the whole commandmemnet and rules and continue to make animal sacrafices work Mike!
are you serious? because jesus paid for all that on the cross... now we trust in his sacrifice which we have available to us through the sacraments..... rules and regs are things you find in evangelical churches. sacraments are found in the catholic church.. the difference is that sacraments are instituted by christ and evangelical rules and regs are not. when evangelicals tell you that you cannot smoke and be a christian then you should tell them to sacrifice an animal... but when christ says to baptize i wouldn't tell him that's like sacrificing an animal... you can.
quote:
At the same time throw out grace and mercy out the window like you are doing.
one love
nope.. not doing that either... i mean it's easy for you to say such a thing.. but again the facts are not there. catholics are probably the only christians i know who actually understand grace and mercy... because we still repent of our sins... there is no need for grace and mercy in a belief that says "your born again spirit cannot sin"... is there?
at the rate your going you may as well throw the whole bible out your window.
If it was as simple as you "your born again spirit can not sin" theory, then Satan himself would be saved. If all it took was a simple "I accept Jesus into my heart" prayer, then there would be no sinners... no demons... no sins... and no devil! But there is, evan, and God is not as simple as you would like to believe. He has rules and regulations... this has nothing to do with burnt offerings... Baptism is not a BURNT OFFERING. For you to say so is absurd. My Lord took part in Baptism before he began his ministry..... Why should you or anybody else get the privilege to omit this very act of our humble Lord and savior, Jesus Christ?
"There are water and tears; the water of baptism and the tears of repentance." -St. Ambrose“
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