The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to

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Originally posted by smith

actually the church teaches of three different baptisms


Baptism of Desire

Baptism of Blood

Sacrament of Baptism (water)


and Jesus said you have to be baptised to enter His kingdom---are you suggesting Jesus is wrong? read and actually research what John 3:3-5 really means..................


We believe that baptism with water -- by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling -- in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, cleanses us from original sin and personal sin (and their punishments) and initiates us into the life of the Church. It is more than merely symbolic; it's more than an expression of belief of the one being baptized (or his parents); it is a Sacrament, both a sign and medium of sanctifying grace. Baptism does something; it remits sins:

Ezekiel 36:25
[Prophecy] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord



It is through Baptism that we are "born again" (or "born from above") of "water and of the Spirit" (John 3:3-5). Read the entire chapter of John 3 which speaks of being "born again" and please note that it is all about Baptism. Despite what some Protestants believe, being "born again" doesn't mean "having an emotional high" or "making a decision for Christ," though these are fine and good, the latter being necessary after the age of reason; being "born again" very clearly refers to Baptism of water and of the Spirit. This regeneration of water and Spirit is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God: John 3:3-5
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God


Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul, so one may be baptized only once. (this means only one of the three)

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.




Some Protestants argue that "baptizo" in the New Testament means "immersion" and that any Baptism that doesn't include immersion is not a true Baptism. While "baptizo" does mean "immersion," it also means "washing," as is evident in this verse:
Luke 11 38
And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed [baptizo] before dinner.
Trust me, first century Jews didn't immerse themselves before dinner, and Ezekiel's prophecy mentioned above also not only includes, but specifically mentions "sprinkling":

Ezekiel 36:25
[Prophecy] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
The verses mentioned above that describe St. Paul's baptizing people in their households -- houses without swimming pools in them -- indicates "washing" rather than "immersion." Paul himself was baptized not only in a house, but standing up:
Acts 9:17–18
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

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Originally posted by mikejuli

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I think if you truely love someone you will not give up, until it is to late and they find they are decieved for themselves, but if I was telling the truth the whole time I think you and other religion at large would thank me so much for my on going efford to see you be set free and come into the knowledge of truth and love!

one love Mike

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i never give up evan... i just want you to really deal with truth instead of misrepresenting us. i mean if you really believe your telling the truth why do you need to make claims that are not true about us... especially when we have explained exactly what we do believe. i don't mind so much if you disagree with me but if you only think you disagree with me and continue to completely misrepresent me then there is something wrong with you idea of truth to begin with. i just don't understand where such strong delusion comes from evan because i don't think you dumb but i also don't think you mean to be offensive.... so what is the reason? why cannot to actually deal with what we believe instead of attacking a bent idea of what we believe?

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Originally posted by evangelist

Part 2 The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

Mike and many other RCC think if you are not baptized in water you are not saved.
Salvation can only come by water baptism think many religious people.

Not only the RCC but the church of Jesus Christ and mormons have this doctrine also.

Salvation is by faith and faith alone, Baptism is not a requirement!
John 6:28–29 John 3:15 we get salvation by believing!

Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

If you what your household to be saved, just do like the jailer and his house and believe!!

Paul taught the gospel in 1 Cor. 15 without any water baptism!
1Co:15:1: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;


read the whole chapter of the gospel teaching of apostle Paul which we should stand abd teach to others!

one love

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by smith

actually the church teaches of three different baptisms


Baptism of Desire

Baptism of Blood

Sacrament of Baptism (water)


and Jesus said you have to be baptised to enter His kingdom---are you suggesting Jesus is wrong? read and actually research what John 3:3-5 really means..................


We believe that baptism with water -- by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling -- in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, cleanses us from original sin and personal sin (and their punishments) and initiates us into the life of the Church. It is more than merely symbolic; it's more than an expression of belief of the one being baptized (or his parents); it is a Sacrament, both a sign and medium of sanctifying grace. Baptism does something; it remits sins:

Ezekiel 36:25
[Prophecy] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord



It is through Baptism that we are "born again" (or "born from above") of "water and of the Spirit" (John 3:3-5). Read the entire chapter of John 3 which speaks of being "born again" and please note that it is all about Baptism. Despite what some Protestants believe, being "born again" doesn't mean "having an emotional high" or "making a decision for Christ," though these are fine and good, the latter being necessary after the age of reason; being "born again" very clearly refers to Baptism of water and of the Spirit. This regeneration of water and Spirit is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God: John 3:3-5
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God


Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul, so one may be baptized only once. (this means only one of the three)

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.




Some Protestants argue that "baptizo" in the New Testament means "immersion" and that any Baptism that doesn't include immersion is not a true Baptism. While "baptizo" does mean "immersion," it also means "washing," as is evident in this verse:
Luke 11 38
And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed [baptizo] before dinner.
Trust me, first century Jews didn't immerse themselves before dinner, and Ezekiel's prophecy mentioned above also not only includes, but specifically mentions "sprinkling":

Ezekiel 36:25
[Prophecy] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
The verses mentioned above that describe St. Paul's baptizing people in their households -- houses without swimming pools in them -- indicates "washing" rather than "immersion." Paul himself was baptized not only in a house, but standing up:
Acts 9:17–18
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

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Joh 3:5 Jesus2424 answered,611 Verily,281 verily,281 I say3004 unto thee,4671 Except3362 a man5100 be born1080 of1537 water5204 and2532 of the Spirit,4151 he cannot1410, 3756 enter1525 into1519 the3588 kingdom932 of God.2316

Smith what does the word( be born) mean in the verse in John 3??

To keep that scripture in context you have to use be born with water correct or do you divide the scriptures and use only certain words to valiod your doctrine???

one love

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Yet we are not in a boat floating in Christ's blood, but bathed in it, washed clean by it.

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Yes, now we are getting somewhere!
I like how you notice to get into the blood of Jesus that washed us eternalty forever, always clean as Jesus is unless we reject Him and go back to our vormit or mud!
Also I am proud to see it is the blood that only did the perfect everlasting cleaning and not mention another cleaning again added to the blood of Jesus !

one love FAL!

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Baptism is not about getting wet, but about cleansing us of our sins and symbolizing our burial and resurrection into Christ.

Noah did not get immersed (though likely splashed), but the sins of the world were washed away from him by water.

The Hebrews did not get wet when Moses parted the Red Sea, but they did walk through the water and when they came out the other side the water closed up and washed away all that was hindering them. And Moses really did go into the cloud and was covered by it, and the cloud was upon them by day (Numbers 10:34).

There is only ONE BAPTISM, it happens by water and spirit, but is still only one. If water baptism was intended to be separate from spirit baptism, then the Apostles would have to have baptized everyone twice, and each mention of the word "baptize", "baptized" or "baptism" would have to specify water or spirit.

There is no mention of the Apostles baptizeing twice. In Acts 19, the only reason they were baptized a second time was because the first time was only by John the Baptist who could only baptize with water.

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in the spiritual reality yes it is one baptism!
So when we do the ritual water baptism it is again one natural baptism of the symbolic of the spiritual which counts before God and all the angels!

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by Diana Holberg

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Originally posted by evangelist
Also where did noah get water baptized, not where the water saves.
Notice the boat saved then , Just like Jesus blood saves us!

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And yet Scripture relates Noah's ark to our baptism:

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience — through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

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Noah, Moses , Abraham died in the old covenant and Jesus got them out to go to heaven with him as he went to the spirits in prison!
Jesus is again the savior not the water!
But again we should get baptized sooner or latter if you are a christian, and it can be many years latter also after a christian got saved , born again, and is filled with the Spirit of God!

one love

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by acumenCry

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

And Paul most certainly did preach baptism, and explained it most fully as to why we need to be baptized. It is how we enter Christ's Body. It is the means by which we are born again.

Those who suggest that Paul did not fully affirm the necessity of baptism are not familiar with his writings, and have familiarized themselves with only a few verses taken out of context.

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What verses are taken out of contexts??

Did you read what Paul taught of the true gospel in 1 Corithians 15??
No mention of getting wet niether!

one love FAL!

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Here's a mention of getting wet:

Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

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Notice they believed and was filled with the Holy Ghost!

Plus I am not saying that a person should not get wet, I am against the false heretic doctrine that getting wet is what saves us or is required in order to be born again or saved and have salvation.

one love

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I agree with you and sorry for the misrepresentations it is not my motive!
But I do thank you that you can accept my unbelief and disagreement against many, many doctrines , sacrafices, and theology you do have and agree you do have them.
Do feel free to correct me when I am misrepresenting you or the church.

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It is like someone saying they believe the sky is green and the grass is blue, or 1+1=3 and I misrepresent them and say a differnt color and 1+1=4 to them.
I am right in what I think but I am wrong in what they represent, and I think this is the same I do with you guys and your church.
Is that a good analogy Mike of what I am doing???

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by michael

Do you think the Israelites would have been saved if they had not followed Moses through the red sea?

1 Cor 10
[1] I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
[2] and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
[3] and all ate the same supernatural food
[4] and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Do you think eight persons were not saved through water in the days of Noah?
Do you think baptism, does not corresponds to this?
Do you think Peter was wrong when he said Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you?

1 Peter 3
[18] For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
[19] in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
[20] who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
[21] Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

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Which of any of those stories that the people get wet???

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Which of the Israelites got dunk under water ?

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Did Noah and his family get dunk , or are you thinking the noah boat was an submarine??

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Originally posted by jdubya

Evan,
If you want to start pretending to know Greek, your position is in even more serious trouble.

Born of Water and Spirit = gennethe ek hudatos kai pneumatos. This is a single prepositonal phrase governed by two nouns. The article is not used on either noun. This simply means that these constitute a single event (born again) with two actions and can't be broken into two separate events as the illiterate and false teachers try to force it to.

Thus, it is not about being born of amniotic fluid or natural birth (born of water is never used in any Greek literature as meaning natural birth) as opposed to being born of Spirit.
This is just another translation by certain Protestants that make just about any honest person shake their head. Besides this repugnant interpretation, they also try to separate Water from Spirit, which is completely against the Greek grammatical construction.

The early fathers of the church knew Greek as their native language and never interpreted John 3:3-5 as modern Protestants have attempted to do. It always was assumed to mean water baptism associated with receiving the Spirit.

Furthermore, you will see references to baptism in the NT used in the middle voice, which means it is an action performed by you and also on you. That certainly isn't speaking of Spirit Baptism alone, which you have no part in. That would be used in the passive voice.

Sorry, listing Strong's references by themselves doesn't help anyone.

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Originally posted by geekborj

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Originally posted by evangelist

Part 2 The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!

Mike and many other RCC think if you are not baptized in water you are not saved.
Salvation can only come by water baptism think many religious people.

Not only the RCC but the church of Jesus Christ and mormons have this doctrine also.

Salvation is by faith and faith alone, Baptism is not a requirement!
John 6:28–29 John 3:15 we get salvation by believing!

Some unbelievers once asked the disciples: "What must I do to be saved?"

They replied: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

Note again no mention of baptism. Just belief in the Lord Jesus.

If you what your household to be saved, just do like the jailer and his house and believe!!

Paul taught the gospel in 1 Cor. 15 without any water baptism!
1Co:15:1: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;


read the whole chapter of the gospel teaching of apostle Paul which we should stand abd teach to others!

one love

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Evan, what do you think the ENTIRE Bible speaks about the word "believing"? I've read in one post: "Point me to somebody who believes and does not want to be baptized; then point me to another who does not believe."

Indeed, we must believe in ALL that Jesus has told us. So, let us go down to what Jesus has to say to be saved:
Read further down Jn 6:28-29 about receiving the Eucharist.
Jn 6:53-54: Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
Further up Jn 3:15 about being "born again", being baptized.
Jn 3:5-7: Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I told you, 'You must be born from above.'
Being baptized is being member of Christ's Church/Flock.
Jn 10:9: I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.
Living in righteousness in the cause of the Faith and loving Christ is also required:
Mt 5:20,26: I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
Jn 14:15: If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

A more detailed exhortation can be found in other passages. The quoted passage about believing (only) might be obvious to the reader at that time.
Acts 2:38: Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins...
A first-hand teaching to Paul by Ananias:
Acts 22:16: Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.

In baptism we die with Him and we live with Him, as Jesus said:
Lk 12:50: There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished!

If baptism is not required, then it will be difficult to explain why Jesus specifically commanded his disciples to...
Mt 28:19-20: make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
In a different occasion, with His apostles:
Mk 16:15-16: [Jesus] said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I hope these verses would give you an overview of what the WHOLE Bible is talking about "believing." Some words are just loaded with meaning in the Christian Gospel. It even hints repentance and love, not just baptism.

Just like the one love you preach, baptism is part of it, brother.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

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Originally posted by evangelist

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Yet we are not in a boat floating in Christ's blood, but bathed in it, washed clean by it.

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Yes, now we are getting somewhere!
I like how you notice to get into the blood of Jesus that washed us eternalty forever, always clean as Jesus is unless we reject Him and go back to our vormit or mud!
Also I am proud to see it is the blood that only did the perfect everlasting cleaning and not mention another cleaning again added to the blood of Jesus !

one love FAL!

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Which is accomplished through water baptism. God set it up this way.

So if you understand that water washes us clean with the Blood of the Lamb, why do have such trouble with baptism? It is the visible means through which the spiritual is accomplished.

And we are only baptized once.

You asked before what would happen if a Christian dies before being baptized, Smith gave you two examples of baptisms that may occur supernaturally upon the death of an unbaptized believer.

But to suggest that we cannot soil our garments after being washed clean is a little risky on your part.

The verse from 2 Peter that you partially quote and I have often quoted, does not speak of just one sin but a return to sin in general.

2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

What are the pollutions (plural) of the world that we escaped?

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