The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to
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Part 2 The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!Mike and many other RCC think if you are not baptized in water you are not saved.Salvation can only come by water baptism think many religious people.Not only the RCC but the church of Jesus Christ and more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/19/2009 13:58:35
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I won't know that for certain until I get to Heaven.
Can a righteous man who has not found Christ go to Heaven?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
I won't know that for certain until I get to Heaven.
Can a righteous man who has not found Christ go to Heaven?
NO! because that is just like saying muslims can go to heaven because they deny Christ also as the Son of God so they are damned already!
But I do know now a righteous man will go to heaven when they are righteous in Christ and I don't have to wait till I get to heaven!
one love FAL!
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
And Paul most certainly did preach baptism, and explained it most fully as to why we need to be baptized. It is how we enter Christ's Body. It is the means by which we are born again.
Those who suggest that Paul did not fully affirm the necessity of baptism are not familiar with his writings, and have familiarized themselves with only a few verses taken out of context.
What verses are taken out of contexts??
Did you read what Paul taught of the true gospel in 1 Corithians 15??
No mention of getting wet niether!
one love FAL!
Here's a mention of getting wet:
Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Notice they believed and was filled with the Holy Ghost!
Plus I am not saying that a person should not get wet, I am against the false heretic doctrine that getting wet is what saves us or is required in order to be born again or saved and have salvation.
one love
I see what you're saying  and I can see why you feel that way... but what I can't see is how a follower of Jesus Christ is able to refuse following him through baptism. He was baptized. He told his disciples to baptize. And as Diana quoted, baptism saves. Maybe it didn't have the ability to save before Jesus did all that he did, but it does now.
Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (John 11:25) ... We (the baptized) have experienced the grace of being buried with him in his tomb and reborn unto life.
"There are water and tears; the water of baptism and the tears of repentance." -St. Ambrose“
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
I won't know that for certain until I get to Heaven.
Can a righteous man who has not found Christ go to Heaven?
NO! because that is just like saying muslims can go to heaven because they deny Christ also as the Son of God so they are damned already!
But I do know now a righteous man will go to heaven when they are righteous in Christ and I don't have to wait till I get to heaven!
one love FAL!
We are made righteous through Baptism. It is how Christ set things up. Acts 19 demonstrates that faith alone does not bring about the Holy Ghost.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
And Paul most certainly did preach baptism, and explained it most fully as to why we need to be baptized. It is how we enter Christ's Body. It is the means by which we are born again.
Those who suggest that Paul did not fully affirm the necessity of baptism are not familiar with his writings, and have familiarized themselves with only a few verses taken out of context.
What verses are taken out of contexts??
Did you read what Paul taught of the true gospel in 1 Corithians 15??
No mention of getting wet niether!
one love FAL!
Here's a mention of getting wet:
Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Notice they believed and was filled with the Holy Ghost!
Plus I am not saying that a person should not get wet, I am against the false heretic doctrine that getting wet is what saves us or is required in order to be born again or saved and have salvation.
one love
I see what you're saying and I can see why you feel that way... but what I can't see is how a follower of Jesus Christ is able to refuse following him through baptism. He was baptized. He told his disciples to baptize. And as Diana quoted, baptism saves. Maybe it didn't have the ability to save before Jesus did all that he did, but it does now.
Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (John 11:25) ... We (the baptized) have experienced the grace of being buried with him in his tomb and reborn unto life.
Before you answer please tell me how you get grace in that verse you mention?
This scripture clearly states that God’s grace is available to supply all our needs and to help us do every good work. Also, at the very least, this scripture also strongly implies that every good work is grace.
Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ (1Pet 1:13).
This scripture tells us that we are to look forward in hope to the gift of grace we shall receive at the return of Christ. What else is this but the resurrection of true Christians?!
Peter speaks of Christian husbands and their wives: “…being heirs together of the grace of life” (1Pet 3:7). The Bible tells us that what true Christian heirs should expect to inherit is eternal life! (Matt 19:29; 10:17; Luke 10:25; 18:18.) Does “unmerited pardon” of itself grant us eternal life?
But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you (1Pet 5:10).
Grace is there to supply all our need to have the rights to heaven, and give us the gift to unmerit or uncondition religious works!
my source:
http://www.servantsnews.com/sn0211/grace.htm
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/24/2009 18:19:14
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Sanctifying grace is initially received through baptism.
What you've posted doesn't speak of how grace is received except in the most general terms. Your comment doesn't match the article. It says every good work is grace and that after you have suffered a little while..... Then you go off with your typical slogan about religious works. Do you even comprehend your own posts?
The other thing you don't do is deal with the passages that show the effects of baptism. You just cover them up with verses that don't say anything about specifics.
Can't you see that you are putting scripture in conflict with other scripture? We show you specifics, you give us generalities that don't conflict with the specifics. Then you basically contend that the generalities trump specifics. You then are content to leave the specific instances unexplained or unharmonized.
The true heretic is the one who teaches others to disobey the Gospel.
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As usual, you have simply copied and pasted random verses, even using them contrary to your sources intentions like you didn’t even read the whole thing.
You ask me where I get grace in John 11:25? Well, nowhere. I think you are looking too close. Back up and view Scripture from a bird's eye, and maybe you can see it the way God intended.
Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe in him, right? Well, Satan and his fallen angels believed in him long before you, yet they refused to follow him. Did you ever play “follow the leader” as a child? If so, you know that if your leader does something, then you must do it in order to survive. In the Old Testament, God gave his laws to Moses who then wrote the commandments in stone… but with Jesus, he writes them in our hearts so that all may know him. He led by example, expecting his followers to follow in his footsteps.
Rather than telling the disciples to wash each other’s feet, he first washed their feet.
John:12
So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
So do you think baptism is a man-made tradition? If it ever was, then it was made God’s tradition the very moment he was baptized. God humbled himself before man, evan, so why shouldn’t we? Are we greater than our master? I know I’m not. I’m glad you started this post, because from now on, I will hold my baptism even closer to my heart as a shield.
"There are water and tears; the water of baptism and the tears of repentance." -St. Ambrose“
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evan... still waiting for your answer to this: what i would like to know is if someone gets "saved" at your disco are you going to tell them to be baptized or not.... if you answer yes then i wan't to know why.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Sanctifying grace is initially received through baptism.
What you've posted doesn't speak of how grace is received except in the most general terms. Your comment doesn't match the article. It says every good work is grace and that after you have suffered a little while..... Then you go off with your typical slogan about religious works. Do you even comprehend your own posts?
The other thing you don't do is deal with the passages that show the effects of baptism. You just cover them up with verses that don't say anything about specifics.
Can't you see that you are putting scripture in conflict with other scripture? We show you specifics, you give us generalities that don't conflict with the specifics. Then you basically contend that the generalities trump specifics. You then are content to leave the specific instances unexplained or unharmonized.
The true heretic is the one who teaches others to disobey the Gospel.
This is the same excuse the mormons use for their water bapism for the dead and baptism of legalism to obtain salvation and a requirement to get saved!
That is not the gospel of truth in Christ!
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
As usual, you have simply copied and pasted random verses, even using them contrary to your sources intentions like you didn’t even read the whole thing.
You ask me where I get grace in John 11:25? Well, nowhere. I think you are looking too close. Back up and view Scripture from a bird's eye, and maybe you can see it the way God intended.
Jesus promises eternal life to all who believe in him, right? Well, Satan and his fallen angels believed in him long before you, yet they refused to follow him. Did you ever play “follow the leader” as a child? If so, you know that if your leader does something, then you must do it in order to survive. In the Old Testament, God gave his laws to Moses who then wrote the commandments in stone… but with Jesus, he writes them in our hearts so that all may know him. He led by example, expecting his followers to follow in his footsteps.
Rather than telling the disciples to wash each other’s feet, he first washed their feet.
John:12
So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
So do you think baptism is a man-made tradition? If it ever was, then it was made God’s tradition the very moment he was baptized. God humbled himself before man, evan, so why shouldn’t we? Are we greater than our master? I know I’m not. I’m glad you started this post, because from now on, I will hold my baptism even closer to my heart as a shield.
I do like your follow the leader analogy it was a very good one, but the whole issue we have and myself over baptism is the fact that it must be a requirement to get saved , or born again and have sakvation!
That is not the true gospel of the bible maybe in the mormons or a baptist radical Jesus christ church which have this mulipulation, and legalism philosophy!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
evan... still waiting for your answer to this: what i would like to know is if someone gets "saved" at your disco are you going to tell them to be baptized or not.... if you answer yes then i wan't to know why.
Yes , I do tell them but in the right order, and I tell them to read their bibles, pray, give offerings, bless others by helping them in needs and go to a bible led church, have fellowship with other christian and go to our three week class to understand water baptism and why they should get water baptized and then do it on a date when the next water baptism is done in front of the whole church.
But i tell them they are already saved and born again before all those things including a water baptism, and that they are as holy , righteous, just and pure in their spirits as Jesus is in heaven now while they are on earth before any water baptism!
I hope this answered your question in mor clearness!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
This is the same excuse the mormons use for their water bapism for the dead and baptism of legalism to obtain salvation and a requirement to get saved!
That is not the gospel of truth in Christ!
i'm not suprised that the mormons would have a better grasp of some scriptures than you do evan. but still it really doesn't matter what the mormons do because we aren't mormons... heck you may as well point out that the mormons use the same kjv of the bible that evangelicals do... shall i then conclude that evangelicals are just like the mormons? is that really a good argument? it's like arguing that people have feet and pigs have feet, therefore people are pigs. the real issue isn't what mormons believe but what the bible actually teaches and if you cannot produce a good argument from the bible what makes you think you can hide behind the mormons?
mike
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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One is born again through baptism. No other way. And baptism is the means for entering into the New Covenant with Christ.
Can you be saved if you reject the Covenant? That is not even sensible. And it goes against the Bible.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Sanctifying grace is initially received through baptism.
What you've posted doesn't speak of how grace is received except in the most general terms. Your comment doesn't match the article. It says every good work is grace and that after you have suffered a little while..... Then you go off with your typical slogan about religious works. Do you even comprehend your own posts?
The other thing you don't do is deal with the passages that show the effects of baptism. You just cover them up with verses that don't say anything about specifics.
Can't you see that you are putting scripture in conflict with other scripture? We show you specifics, you give us generalities that don't conflict with the specifics. Then you basically contend that the generalities trump specifics. You then are content to leave the specific instances unexplained or unharmonized.
The true heretic is the one who teaches others to disobey the Gospel.
This is the same excuse the mormons use for their water bapism for the dead and baptism of legalism to obtain salvation and a requirement to get saved!
That is not the gospel of truth in Christ!
Words are cheap and your pride has taken over.
You can't seem to deal with the literal words of scripture and baptism is one of the clearest teachings there is in all of scripture.
I see your tactic which is very typical. When you don't have any answers, use deflection. Make an appeal to legalism (which you don't even understand) and associate Catholics with Mormons. Well, if Jesus commanded the apostles to make disciples by baptizing them, then the Mormons are closer to the truth than you are in some important matters.
I'm sure they don't believe in decision salvation either which is an invention of 19th and 20th Century American Evangelicals and a false Gospel at best.
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
evan... still waiting for your answer to this: what i would like to know is if someone gets "saved" at your disco are you going to tell them to be baptized or not.... if you answer yes then i wan't to know why.
Yes , I do tell them ..... and go to our three week class to understand water baptism and why they should get water baptized and then do it on a date when the next water baptism is done in front of the whole church.
I hope this answered your question in mor clearness!
one love
yes... and as i thought; you actually teach dead works of the flesh. if baptism means nothing then why are you doing it? and why are you whining about others doing it when in fact you yourself also do it? as a matter of fact if none of those things you mentioned matter... why teach them? why tell anyone? and why would anyone do them? if there truly is no need for them and you still tell people to do them then you are asking them to do works that do absolutely nothing but exalt the flesh. to make a comparison with another sacrament, it would be like telling a couple that they are already married and don't need a ceremony or vows.... it's true that they love each other already, but as we all know, love is just a word, like believe, and really means nothing unless it commits. and either that ceremony does something like makes the 2 become one flesh or it really is a dead thing.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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