The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to
-
-
First Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Part 2 The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!Mike and many other RCC think if you are not baptized in water you are not saved.Salvation can only come by water baptism think many religious people.Not only the RCC but the church of Jesus Christ and more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/19/2009 13:58:35
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
This is the same excuse the mormons use for their water bapism for the dead and baptism of legalism to obtain salvation and a requirement to get saved!
That is not the gospel of truth in Christ!
i'm not suprised that the mormons would have a better grasp of some scriptures than you do evan. but still it really doesn't matter what the mormons do because we aren't mormons... heck you may as well point out that the mormons use the same kjv of the bible that evangelicals do... shall i then conclude that evangelicals are just like the mormons? is that really a good argument? it's like arguing that people have feet and pigs have feet, therefore people are pigs. the real issue isn't what mormons believe but what the bible actually teaches and if you cannot produce a good argument from the bible what makes you think you can hide behind the mormons?
mike
The main thing I am saying is that you both use in false understanding of a legalism requirement of a water baptism doctrine in order to get saved or born again , and you can't believe unless you get wet and that is what is heretic and false to the true gospeö.
Just like going to a front of a church is not a rquirement to get saved when a person gives their life to Jesus as i always mention niether and we are wrong if we make it a requirement as well as you with a water baptismo!
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/27/2009 09:26:47
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
One is born again through baptism. No other way. And baptism is the means for entering into the New Covenant with Christ.
Can you be saved if you reject the Covenant? That is not even sensible. And it goes against the Bible.
But you can be saved if you reject getting wet if you are born again in the spirit you are righteous and righteous people go to heaven specially when they are righteous in Christ, unless you believe righteous people go to hell.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Sanctifying grace is initially received through baptism.
What you've posted doesn't speak of how grace is received except in the most general terms. Your comment doesn't match the article. It says every good work is grace and that after you have suffered a little while..... Then you go off with your typical slogan about religious works. Do you even comprehend your own posts?
The other thing you don't do is deal with the passages that show the effects of baptism. You just cover them up with verses that don't say anything about specifics.
Can't you see that you are putting scripture in conflict with other scripture? We show you specifics, you give us generalities that don't conflict with the specifics. Then you basically contend that the generalities trump specifics. You then are content to leave the specific instances unexplained or unharmonized.
The true heretic is the one who teaches others to disobey the Gospel.
This is the same excuse the mormons use for their water bapism for the dead and baptism of legalism to obtain salvation and a requirement to get saved!
That is not the gospel of truth in Christ!
Words are cheap and your pride has taken over.
You can't seem to deal with the literal words of scripture and baptism is one of the clearest teachings there is in all of scripture.
I see your tactic which is very typical. When you don't have any answers, use deflection. Make an appeal to legalism (which you don't even understand) and associate Catholics with Mormons. Well, if Jesus commanded the apostles to make disciples by baptizing them, then the Mormons are closer to the truth than you are in some important matters.
I'm sure they don't believe in decision salvation either which is an invention of 19th and 20th Century American Evangelicals and a false Gospel at best.
Does a diciple come before a baby new born Christian?
maybe I should use church of Christ!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb9_mxjUqWI
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
One is born again through baptism. No other way. And baptism is the means for entering into the New Covenant with Christ.
Can you be saved if you reject the Covenant? That is not even sensible. And it goes against the Bible.
But you can be saved if you reject getting wet if you are born again in the spirit you are righteous and righteous people go to heaven specially when they are righteous in Christ, unless you believe righteous people go to hell.
one love
No you can't. Because if you refuse entry into Christ's New Covenant, which is the purpose of Baptism, then you have rejected Christ.
You are not righteous if you have rejected the washing of regeneration that comes from Baptism. You cannot say that you believe in Christ and then reject what He asks of you.
You are preaching a false and very dangerous Gospel.
For those that fail to be baptized through no fault of their own (ignorance or lack of water or other means), it is possible that Faith can save them - Catholics do believe in the doctrine of the Baptism of Desire. But to reject baptism is a rejection of the New Covenant.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
The main thing I am saying is that you both use in false understanding of a legalism requirement of a water baptism doctrine in order to get saved or born again , and you can't believe unless you get wet and that is what is heretic and false to the true gospeö.
Just like going to a front of a church is not a rquirement to get saved when a person gives their life to Jesus as i always mention niether and we are wrong if we make it a requirement as well as you with a water baptismo!
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
one love
it's not a false understanding or a legalism evan.. it's taking a hold of christs hand as he leads us in his way. he chose baptism not me or you and therefore neither me nor you should be trying to weasel out of it with vain modern theology. that a christian would even consider trying to debunk baptism is just goofy to me, but only demonstrates how devastating the reformation really was.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
One is born again through baptism. No other way. And baptism is the means for entering into the New Covenant with Christ.
Can you be saved if you reject the Covenant? That is not even sensible. And it goes against the Bible.
But you can be saved if you reject getting wet if you are born again in the spirit you are righteous and righteous people go to heaven specially when they are righteous in Christ, unless you believe righteous people go to hell.
one love
No you can't. Because if you refuse entry into Christ's New Covenant, which is the purpose of Baptism, then you have rejected Christ.
You are not righteous if you have rejected the washing of regeneration that comes from Baptism. You cannot say that you believe in Christ and then reject what He asks of you.
You are preaching a false and very dangerous Gospel.
For those that fail to be baptized through no fault of their own (ignorance or lack of water or other means), it is possible that Faith can save them - Catholics do believe in the doctrine of the Baptism of Desire. But to reject baptism is a rejection of the New Covenant.
Well I'm not the only one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-b0XOyrAPA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s6ZIJnyLUo&feature=related
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/27/2009 22:54:08
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
too bad the reformers didn't remove the word baptism from the bible while they were taking out other books... your just gonna have to deal with it evan or simply grab a set of scissors and make your own version of the bible. if you cannot resolve the tension of your beliefs with what the bible says then it might be better to not say anything on the matter until such time as your claims don't force contradictions in the bible.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
too bad the reformers didn't remove the word baptism from the bible while they were taking out other books... your just gonna have to deal with it evan or simply grab a set of scissors and make your own version of the bible. if you cannot resolve the tension of your beliefs with what the bible says then it might be better to not say anything on the matter until such time as your claims don't force contradictions in the bible.
You will make also a good Church of Christ member!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s6ZIJnyLUo&feature=related
As we debate here will come up exactly with the same excuse of water baptism as the church of Christ try to make valid!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
i am part of christs church evan. if you were refering to that cult though i think you would be a better candidate... after all both your churches are built upon anticatholic bs.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
i am part of christs church evan. if you were refering to that cult though i think you would be a better candidate... after all both your churches are built upon anticatholic bs.
True they are not Catholic but again the church of Christ has the same problem of justification with the RCC!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Did Paul teach that a person must be water baptized in order to be saved?
I do remember Paul saying this:
1 Corinthians 1:17 (NKJV)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/26/2008
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Did Paul teach that a person must be water baptized in order to be saved?
I do remember Paul saying this:
1 Corinthians 1:17 (NKJV)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
one love
Most converts were baptized by Paul’s helpers. Paul ordinarily delegated the baptism of converts to his assistants, his task as an apostle being to evangelize.
The reference to baptism & the contrast with preaching the gospel in v 17 suggest that some Corinthians were paying special allegiance to the individuals who initiated them into the community.
1 Cor 6:11
"But you were washed, you were sanctified,"
Edited by michael on 08/06/2009 07:16:23
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Evangelist, I went through that very verse you quoted from Paul before, do you remember none of what I said?
And we are born again of the Spirit when we are baptized. With the exception of Cornelius and his household, it does not happen any other way.
Jesus said he that believes AND is baptized shall be saved. If baptism were not connected, then He would not have included it.
As Michael rightly pointed out, Paul most definitely preached baptism. His statement on being sent to preach the Gospel and not to baptize was not a statement against baptism in any way, in fact, the very point of the discussion was their perversion of baptism into a point of division between developing sects.
Today Paul might well say that he was glad that he did not baptize any Lutherans or Calvinists or Weslyans lest they form a new sect of Paulians. Baptism was extremely important to Paul and that is why he wrote that portion of that letter.
Today many Christian groups no longer baptize into the Body of Christ but into their own local churches and go so far as to reject the baptisms of any Christians baptised in a different group. Some even deny the opportunity to be baptized to those who do not measure up to their local requirements.
The Christians that Paul was writing to were idolizing the men who baptized them. These men were their spiritual fathers in Christ, and certainly had an important role to play in their faith development, but they were first and foremost servants of Christ not founders of their own sects and would not have wanted to be.
Paul wrote of baptism on several occassions and explained its significance.
Evangelist, you have been baptized (three times if I recall) so do not make the mistake of downplaying the importance of baptism to your followers. You are benefiting from that sacrament even if you deny it.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by michael
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Did Paul teach that a person must be water baptized in order to be saved?
I do remember Paul saying this:
1 Corinthians 1:17 (NKJV)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
one love
Most converts were baptized by Paul’s helpers. Paul ordinarily delegated the baptism of converts to his assistants, his task as an apostle being to evangelize.
The reference to baptism & the contrast with preaching the gospel in v 17 suggest that some Corinthians were paying special allegiance to the individuals who initiated them into the community.
1 Cor 6:11
"But you were washed, you were sanctified,"
It seems like you are saying Paul was disobeying Jesus command to baptize all nations, when the key of water baptism was not his mission except to preach the gospel.
The gospel preached is without a water baptism and Paul knew this!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist, I went through that very verse you quoted from Paul before, do you remember none of what I said?
And we are born again of the Spirit when we are baptized. With the exception of Cornelius and his household, it does not happen any other way.
Jesus said he that believes AND is baptized shall be saved. If baptism were not connected, then He would not have included it.
As Michael rightly pointed out, Paul most definitely preached baptism. His statement on being sent to preach the Gospel and not to baptize was not a statement against baptism in any way, in fact, the very point of the discussion was their perversion of baptism into a point of division between developing sects.
Today Paul might well say that he was glad that he did not baptize any Lutherans or Calvinists or Weslyans lest they form a new sect of Paulians. Baptism was extremely important to Paul and that is why he wrote that portion of that letter.
Today many Christian groups no longer baptize into the Body of Christ but into their own local churches and go so far as to reject the baptisms of any Christians baptised in a different group. Some even deny the opportunity to be baptized to those who do not measure up to their local requirements.
The Christians that Paul was writing to were idolizing the men who baptized them. These men were their spiritual fathers in Christ, and certainly had an important role to play in their faith development, but they were first and foremost servants of Christ not founders of their own sects and would not have wanted to be.
Paul wrote of baptism on several occassions and explained its significance.
Evangelist, you have been baptized (three times if I recall) so do not make the mistake of downplaying the importance of baptism to your followers. You are benefiting from that sacrament even if you deny it.
Again I am all for water baptism and I tell everyone to sooner or latter to get baptized, but never a requirement and give them a law and rule that they remain a sinner until they have to get wet on the outside!
That is the most heretic message to give this false doctrine and ritual to a new born again believer.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
|
|
Subscribe by Email
RSS