The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to
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Part 2 The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved!Mike and many other RCC think if you are not baptized in water you are not saved.Salvation can only come by water baptism think many religious people.Not only the RCC but the church of Jesus Christ and more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 07/19/2009 13:58:35
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There are so many verses that show the necessity of Baptism and give the reasons why it is required.
I also like the following, which as with the others has been provided so many times before.
1 Peter 3:20 "The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
If Jesus, Peter and Paul are not sufficient for you, then I can only assume a severe case of willful blindness on your part.
You have yet to show conclusive scriptural evidence to prove that Baptism is not required. Not one passage that says that baptism is only symbol or that anyone can enter Heaven without it.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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i think a lot of evans problem is centered on the idea of being required... it may not seem fair that the thief of the cross didn't need to be baptized, or that some martyr died before baptism yet was still saved. if there was an exception to the rule then it's not fair to still hold everyone else to it, or it must not really be required after all. to me the bible seems pretty clear about baptism, and i see very good reasons why exceptions were being made... like the thief on the cross. the only other problem would be that it appears to be a work, and unfortunately because of the reformation finding works is kind of like a witch hunt for many protestants... to the point that even christs' imperative commands are criticized. i'm just not willing to play that game other than to point out that any work that could actually be attributed to baptism was accomplished on the cross. god isn't saving people for taking a bath, he died on the cross so he could provide one.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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If you are looking for words in the bible that says "baptism is required for salvation", then you will also have to find words that say "spirit baptism is required" or "faith is required" for salvation.
Do believe that baptism in the spirit is required for salvation? If you do please show a verse that says it is required.
Do we need a specific formula of words to believe in something so obvious and fundamental to Christianity?
We are merely pointing out that water baptism and spirit baptism are one and the same and can't be separated. You see water and spirit throughout the Old and New Testaments.
I think that even if you still think in your own mind that water baptism is not required, you at least have to admit that Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, most Methodists, Church of Christ, and all of Christianity (even almost every heretical sect throughout history) for over 1500 years have a ton of scriptural support for water baptism as necessary for salvation. It wasn't until over 1500+ years after Christ that anyone challenged this doctrine.
Thus, you put yourself in the position of saying that every single Christian for the first 1500 years of Christianity was wrong, and the vast majority of Christians today are still wrong, though not for lack of overwhelming scriptural support.
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.-- Jesus Christs
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. -- Peter
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. -Paul
The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved - C moore.
Yes , we need to be baptized , but the most key problem to this baptism is when a person should and must get baptized!
Is it before they are saved , the same time, or also valid after a person is saved??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 08/25/2009 03:14:13
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that depends on how you define saved evan... but now that even you say we need to be baptized like the rest of us heretics we can start new thread on what saved really means.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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I posted most of this on another thread, but it works here to:
When we are baptized, we receive the Holy Spirit. The water is a symbol, but we are still receive the reality of what it represents.
If one chooses to not get baptized, they do not get the Holy Spirit or the reality of what Baptism represents.
Even with Cornelius and his household the fact that they received the Holy Ghost in advance proved that they were worthy of Baptism. Baptism is not something to be taken lightly.
You make it into some legalistic thing that we should do at somepoint but otherwise is not necessary to our salvation.
Baptism is not a legal action, but our free and virtually unconditional entrance into Christ's covenant. I say virtually because belief is also required for salvation.
Baptism is an extraordinary gift from God and you treat it like some duty that you have to perform because God said so, at some point for no other purpose than to identify yourself as a Christian.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
that depends on how you define saved evan... but now that even you say we need to be baptized like the rest of us heretics we can start new thread on what saved really means.
For sure my friend Mike , saved is not about a water baptism, but it is what a saved person does sooner or latter!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
I posted most of this on another thread, but it works here to:
When we are baptized, we receive the Holy Spirit. The water is a symbol, but we are still receive the reality of what it represents.
If one chooses to not get baptized, they do not get the Holy Spirit or the reality of what Baptism represents.
Even with Cornelius and his household the fact that they received the Holy Ghost in advance proved that they were worthy of Baptism. Baptism is not something to be taken lightly.
You make it into some legalistic thing that we should do at somepoint but otherwise is not necessary to our salvation.
Baptism is not a legal action, but our free and virtually unconditional entrance into Christ's covenant. I say virtually because belief is also required for salvation.
Baptism is an extraordinary gift from God and you treat it like some duty that you have to perform because God said so, at some point for no other purpose than to identify yourself as a Christian.
I also posted this on the other thread water baptism which I think I should repeat here which make the requirement of getting wet a heretic error to be saved:
quote:
When you can see that the wedding ring is not required , then you can see that water baptism is also not required, but it is a good thing every christian should do , just like it is a good example for every married person to wear thier wedding ring!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 08/26/2009 06:43:59
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But the wedding is required. No ceremony = no marriage.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
But the wedding is required. No ceremony = no marriage.
Yes! just like believing is required!
No ring , but still had a wedding = Marriage.
No baptism but still believe with faith trusting Jesus = Saved, salvation, redeemed, righteous, justified! 
one love FAL
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
that depends on how you define saved evan... but now that even you say we need to be baptized like the rest of us heretics we can start new thread on what saved really means.
For sure my friend Mike , saved is not about a water baptism, but it is what a saved person does sooner or latter!
one love
and it's not just about assent.. look again to marriage because it is a picture of christ and the church. marriage is never just about assent. it's not just an idea. it's the whole shebang.. ritual, communion, relationship, sex, procreation. to reduce marriage to just sex and say that nothing else was really required (ie, we don't need to be married in a ritual} means that you define marriage to your own standard and thus it isn't really a marriage at all. in some way baptism is an essential part of that process of salvation... to reject it would be no different than pretending your in a marriage by just living together.
mike
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
But the wedding is required. No ceremony = no marriage.
Yes! just like believing is required!
No ring , but still had a wedding = Marriage.
No baptism but still believe with faith trusting Jesus = Saved, salvation, redeemed, righteous, justified!
one love FAL
Of course believing is required. But Devils believe, and tremble. Devils believe, but they do not get baptized.
Baptism is a ceremony, so is a wedding.
No ceremony = no marriage.
If one does not commit to Christ by being baptized into Christ, then such a one has not fully put his or her trust in Christ.
Baptism is not the ring, it is the ceremony that commits us to Christ the Bridegroom just as the wedding is the ceremony that commits us to our earthly bridegroom/bride.
If you take away the ceremony, then you do not have the marriage, only a pale imitation.
Stop encouraging people to shack-up with Christ. Encourage them to take the big step and actually commit to Christ through baptism.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
But the wedding is required. No ceremony = no marriage.
Yes! just like believing is required!
No ring , but still had a wedding = Marriage.
No baptism but still believe with faith trusting Jesus = Saved, salvation, redeemed, righteous, justified!
one love FAL
Of course believing is required. But Devils believe, and tremble. Devils believe, but they do not get baptized.
Baptism is a ceremony, so is a wedding.
No ceremony = no marriage.
If one does not commit to Christ by being baptized into Christ, then such a one has not fully put his or her trust in Christ.
Baptism is not the ring, it is the ceremony that commits us to Christ the Bridegroom just as the wedding is the ceremony that commits us to our earthly bridegroom/bride.
If you take away the ceremony, then you do not have the marriage, only a pale imitation.
Stop encouraging people to shack-up with Christ. Encourage them to take the big step and actually commit to Christ through baptism.
This is where we are going around in loops and circles Fal is your position of marriage and the ring, trusting Jesus is the key to get in the kINGDOM OF God, and when you are through the door you do the things you should do like get wet and etc!
Also Devils do believe but they don't trust and have faith in the Lord like a new born believer has there is a big difference in that trusting belief FAL!
Our teaching is the ceromony is the key and you are married, but the ring is not what make you married.
The teaching you teach is putting the cart before the horses, or saying the wedding ring makes the marriage valid and legal.
Do you see why this is a heretic message if the ring has to be in marraige FAL???
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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the only reason i can think of for a person not to want a ring in a marriage is because they plan to cheat. your right about one thing though evan, you are going around in loops. my thought is that if you don't believe baptism actually means anything then don't do it at all.. it's just a dead work of the flesh then. the ancient church believes that baptism is not a dead work but a living gift from christ. we are consistent in that we do what we believe and preach and you do what you don't preach. i simply don't understand why evangelicals even bother with baptism, especially when they only see it as a bath, or dead ritual. unless deep down they don't really trust as much as they claim and just want to play it safe.
the ancient church was sacramental evan, because jesus was sacramental, spiritual God in physical flesh. the ancient church also knew that trust is never about just thinking, but absolutely about doing too. the problem is that for the post protestant sects, anything we do physically can be lumped into a "work" regardless of what the writers of the new testament actually meant by that word. Paul talked about works and grace, works were things we got from the laws of moses, and grace was what we got from Christ. the modern sects now believe that works are from Christ too and have adopted a form of gnosticism where anything physical is bad, i soon expect some to deny christ even came in the flesh.
just like the man who refuses a wedding ring (unless there is some reasonable situation that would prevent him from doing so) is probably going to cheat, so a christian that refuses to be baptized (unless there is some reasonable situation that would prevent him from doing so) is also un faithful. at the very least he has too much pride and lacks humility. the man who wants all the goods of a marriage, relationship, sex, family, children but lacks the commitment to actually tie the knot, is not a married man even if it appears that he is on the outside. in the same way a believer that wants all the goods of faith, church, communion, spirituality, fellowship, but refuses to be baptized is really no different than the pseudo married man. he wants the benefits without the commitment... and it's the commitment that prove things like faith and trust, not benefits.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Amen! The devils believe, but they tremble. They lack commitment to Christ and prefer to follow after their own lusts.
Anyone who truly trusts in Christ will be baptized because it is the fulfillment of their Faith.
The ceremony is the entrance into a Covenant, whether it is a wedding ceremony or a baptismal ceremony. Without the ceremony, you have not accepted the Covenant. You have only paid lipservice - and Jesus does not like lipservice.
If two people profess to love each other, they would be willing to commit to each other in marriage for the safety and protection of each other and any future offspring. Those that do not get married with a proper ceremony and witnesses, are just playing make-believe. They are professing their love while leaving an escape route in case they get cold feet.
That is not True Love, only momentary lust. And that is not the kind of Faith that gets one into Heaven either. If anyone leaves themselves a "loophole" by refusing to be baptized then they have not entered into a relationship with Christ. Christ sees when anyone is not willing to go all the way with Him in a committed relationship.
It is taught by the Catholic Church that if someone desires this union with God, but is prevented from being baptized through no fault of their own, Jesus will provide for them with a Baptism of Desire. Martyrs for Christ also receive baptism through blood. So in that sense, and in that sense only, it is possible for a Christian to die without having been first baptized and still be saved. But it is very dangerous to tell people that it is something that is unconnected to their salvation and can be put off.
In the Catholic Teaching, all who are saved ARE baptized one way or another. But, a person who puts off baptism out of laziness or lack of commitment, will likely not qualify for supernatural baptism.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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