water baptism or just belief?
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First Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Does water baptism saves?
Does believing and faith alone saved?
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
God does judge us on our hearts. If our hearts are full of lusts and iniquity in spite of having our hearts sprintkled with pure water, then how else is He to judge us. We have been freed from the slavery of sin, we have no right to return to it.
There are plenty of Christians who look good on the outside. But outward appearances do not impress God. That is why Jesus warned that while in the Old Covenant men were not allowed to commit adultery, under the New Covenant Jesus says that we are called to obey even the spirit of the law, to not even think lustful thoughts.
Walking after the spirit means just that. No one can say they walk after the spirit while indulging in carnal thoughts. We can deceive our neighbours, but not God.
And while baptism is a physical act, once done how can you say it is an outward thing - one cannot tell who has been baptized just by looking at them. God can, but we cannot. We should be able to tell over a period of time by the fruits of their lives, but sometimes people do not remain true to their baptism for periods of time.
According to the Bible, the purpose of the Bible is to prepare us for all good works. God set them out before hand for us and they are for our benefit. Those who refuse to do good works are going against what God has ordained. Those who are simply unable to do some or all of the good works are only required to do what they can, not what is impossible for them.
To whom much is given, much is expected. But fear not, God never asks more of us than what we can do.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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New Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 10/13/2007
Location: USA
Where's choice #3... not everyone believes that salvation is as simple as #1 and #2
"There are water and tears; the water of baptism and the tears of repentance." -St. Ambrose“
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
Where's choice #3... not everyone believes that salvation is as simple as #1 and #2
The gospel message is too simple and to good to accept for many !
That is why it is called the good gospel because it is more simple than 1 and 2 and easy as ABC!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 05/11/2002
It's a false tradeoff, Evangelist. Christ told us that both baptism and belief were necessary.
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Theophilus
It's a false tradeoff, Evangelist. Christ told us that both baptism and belief were necessary.
So if a person doesn't get baptized are they still insaved even though they are a righteous believer and are born again spiritually??
one love Theo!
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
We can leave that up to God. The normative way is to believe (your part prompted by grace) and be baptized (God's free gift).
If a person has been taught falsely by fundamentalist "evangelicals" or WOFs that baptism is unnecessary, I would pray that God would have mercy on them. If a person knows that scripture (and 2000 years of church history) says that you must be baptized, and refuses, they will not have been born again spiritually, and will objectively be lost. No one starts a walk with Christ in disobedience. It's water and spirit baptism, not your own way or a 20th century version of getting saved.
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New Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 10/13/2007
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by acumenCry
Where's choice #3... not everyone believes that salvation is as simple as #1 and #2
The gospel message is too simple and to good to accept for many !
That is why it is called the good gospel because it is more simple than 1 and 2 and easy as ABC!
one love
Why is this a poll, evan? You could have just started another one of your numerous "This is what I believe, and my heart and head are hardened against anything else" threads. 
I was taught the "1s and 2s" and ABCs as a child, but the words of the Bible had to be accompanied by life experience before I could ever begin to know Christ. Salvation is not as simple as saying a rehearsed "I believe in and accept Jesus" prayer. If that were the case, then belief and faith would not even be necessary... deception would suffice.
"There are water and tears; the water of baptism and the tears of repentance." -St. Ambrose“
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Contact:
PM
Member since 05/11/2002
quote:
So if a person doesn't get baptized are they still insaved even though they are a righteous believer and are born again spiritually??
The short answer would be, "Ask Jesus. He's the one who said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved."
There are different kinds of Baptism. If such a person rejected baptism, they'll have some explaining to do. If, on the other hand, they didn't know it was necessary, but would have done it had they known, then it is likely that God will give them the Grace via Baptism of implicit desire.
But the normative means to enter the New Covenant is Baptism, which we've covered countless times on this forum with you.
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
show me a person who says they believe and refuses to be baptized. and i'll show you someone that doesn't really believe.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Contact:
PM
Member since 05/11/2002
Bingo.
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Amen. How can one say that they believe in Christ and then refuse to obey the scriptures He inspired.
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Acts 2:37-38 "Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
Can the Bible be any more clear? How could anyone who claims to love Christ think that anything that Christ asks of us in the scriptures is "optional"? How can anyone who claims Christ as Lord and Saviour think that anything that brings us into Christ is not important to us?
Acts 2:40-42 "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."
Acts 8:12 "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."
Galations 3:26-27 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
He who truly believes will be baptized.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
We can leave that up to God. The normative way is to believe (your part prompted by grace) and be baptized (God's free gift).
If a person has been taught falsely by fundamentalist "evangelicals" or WOFs that baptism is unnecessary, I would pray that God would have mercy on them. If a person knows that scripture (and 2000 years of church history) says that you must be baptized, and refuses, they will not have been born again spiritually, and will objectively be lost. No one starts a walk with Christ in disobedience. It's water and spirit baptism, not your own way or a 20th century version of getting saved.
We are saved by faith and not by being a historian!
We also should live in the NT covenant and take the grace given to us and not the OT works and merits of must, and legalisms religious works, and rituals, conditional only accepted!
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
I agree 100%. So why do you insist on teaching that we not live in the NT covenant? And demand that we just chuck it and live on mutilated faith?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
I agree 100%. So why do you insist on teaching that we not live in the NT covenant? And demand that we just chuck it and live on mutilated faith?
Because you have to crucify Jesus over and over again to get you past ,present, and future sins forgiven on a momentary demand!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Bull, that is a vicious lie made up by Satan's spawn. Catholic teaching is that Christ was crucified once and for all. We only offer Christ's once and for all sacrifice in obedience to His request to us and in fulfillment of Malachi 1:11. It is you who makes demands from scripture that scripture does not support.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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