water baptism or just belief?
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First Member
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Does water baptism saves?Does believing and faith alone saved?
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
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PM
Member since 01/26/2008
Location: USA
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Evangelist, I am a new creature in Christ. Why do you think that only your spirit is new?
When I was baptized in my Church, Christ also baptized me with the Holy Ghost. This left an indellible mark on my soul. Even though the baptism occurred in my infancy, it has affected my whole life even to the present day, because on that day my physical body became a living Tabernacle for the Holy Spirit.
As Paul said, know ye not that your body is a Temple of the Holy Ghost, and that because of this our body is not our own to do with as we please? We are called to glorify God with our BODY and our SPIRIT because both belong to God.
My physical body is a Temple of the Lord and to willingly submit to sin is to descecrate/defile that Temple.
I think that perhaps you do not fully understand all that Jesus did for us.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist, I am a new creature in Christ. Why do you think that only your spirit is new?
When I was baptized in my Church, Christ also baptized me with the Holy Ghost. This left an indellible mark on my soul. Even though the baptism occurred in my infancy, it has affected my whole life even to the present day, because on that day my physical body became a living Tabernacle for the Holy Spirit.
As Paul said, know ye not that your body is a Temple of the Holy Ghost, and that because of this our body is not our own to do with as we please? We are called to glorify God with our BODY and our SPIRIT because both belong to God.
My physical body is a Temple of the Lord and to willingly submit to sin is to descecrate/defile that Temple.
I think that perhaps you do not fully understand all that Jesus did for us.
I know what He finished FAL for all man kind out of love and grace for us!
Think of the shadow of the Holy of Holies the temple!
Think about the count yard as our body , and in the temple part where the curtain was and Holy of holies is where our spirit lies and dwells.
This is where God can come into out rooms of holy of Holies is our spirit because God is Spirit and that is why we nust worship God with our spirit and not with our flesh!
Ro:8:5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Ro:8:6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Ro:8:7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Ro:8:8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Ro:8:9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro:8:10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro:8:11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Ro:8:12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Ro:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro:8:15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro:8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
I hope you can get this also in your heart !
This is why Romans and Hebrews are my best book out of the whole bible WWWOOOWW!
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Evangelist, The Holy Ghost dwells in me. My body is not a count yard, but The Temple of the Holy Ghost, as is every other Christian who has accepted the Holy Ghost.
And you keep ignoring my verses. Please answer them. I showed you portions of your passage that prove that we are called to not walk after the flesh, and why.
If we live after the flesh, we will die, but if we restrain our bodies from sinning, we will live.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
What you do not seem to get is that by ourselves we are not able to please God, it is only with Christ that we can. You seem to think that this means that Christ pleases God and just sheilds us, but the reality is that Jesus died for us so that we could please God. With Christ, we have the ability to resist sin, and an advocate in Christ if we struggle. With Christ we have the means and the ability to become all that Christ wants for us.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
What you do not seem to get is that by ourselves we are not able to please God, it is only with Christ that we can. You seem to think that this means that Christ pleases God and just sheilds us, but the reality is that Jesus died for us so that we could please God. With Christ, we have the ability to resist sin, and an advocate in Christ if we struggle. With Christ we have the means and the ability to become all that Christ wants for us.
God is still please with a born again person even without any baptism, and with sins because of Jesus righteousness,.
Is that good or bad news?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
That is not how it works according to the scriptures. Baptism is the washing of regeneration that cleanses us of our sins. If you do not wash away your sins, how will you please God?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
That is not how it works according to the scriptures. Baptism is the washing of regeneration that cleanses us of our sins. If you do not wash away your sins, how will you please God?
God is always please with us because of Jesus once and for all time repentance of all sins.
We need to repent so we don't leave or let the devil have a stronghold on us, and we hide from God and forsake Him!
The old testament way was to alway sacrafice everytime you sin to get God to be please, but that is not like that no more in the new.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
Yes, In the New we have the once for all eternity sacrifice of Jesus. On that basis, He is the mediator of the New Covenant.
In the OT, God wasn't pleased with sacrifice of animals anyway. The blood of irrational animals couldn't and didn't forgive sins. God doesn't change. It is the condition of the heart that pleases God.
Psa 51:16 For thou hast no delight in sacrifice; were I to give a burnt offering, thou wouldst not be pleased.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Psa 51:18 Do good to Zion in thy good pleasure; rebuild the walls of Jerusalem,
Psa 51:19 then wilt thou delight in right sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings; then bulls will be offered on thy altar.
The sacrifice of animals was a form of obedience, but it was then and still is the condition of the heart that God sees and judges.
Paul says that the works of Law cannot justify a man. He was speaking of the mechanical adherence to the Law without faith. That was true in the OT and is still in the NT.
To completely sever the OT from the NT will result in an incomplete understanding of God because He changeth not. When the NT was being lived out, the OT was the way that many people (and pretty much every Jew) came to believe in Jesus. They had no New Testament, but only the testimony of the Apostles, those they ordained, and the OT as a reference.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Yes, In the New we have the once for all eternity sacrifice of Jesus. On that basis, He is the mediator of the New Covenant.
In the OT, God wasn't pleased with sacrifice of animals anyway. The blood of irrational animals couldn't and didn't forgive sins. God doesn't change. It is the condition of the heart that pleases God.
Psa 51:16 For thou hast no delight in sacrifice; were I to give a burnt offering, thou wouldst not be pleased.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Psa 51:18 Do good to Zion in thy good pleasure; rebuild the walls of Jerusalem,
Psa 51:19 then wilt thou delight in right sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings; then bulls will be offered on thy altar.
The sacrifice of animals was a form of obedience, but it was then and still is the condition of the heart that God sees and judges.
Paul says that the works of Law cannot justify a man. He was speaking of the mechanical adherence to the Law without faith. That was true in the OT and is still in the NT.
To completely sever the OT from the NT will result in an incomplete understanding of God because He changeth not. When the NT was being lived out, the OT was the way that many people (and pretty much every Jew) came to believe in Jesus. They had no New Testament, but only the testimony of the Apostles, those they ordained, and the OT as a reference.
i SEE that the OT brought death and the NT brought life, and was without the laws .
I think the law made sin stronger and the law supported sins.
That is why we are free from the law now!
Ga:5:1: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Ga:5:2: Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Ga:5:3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga:5:4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Ga:5:18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Is water baptism in your understanding also a law which we are also no more under????
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 10/06/2009 10:30:43
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
Baptism is grace, the free gift of God which brings the Holy Spirit (Please refer to your bible, maybe some day you'll actually deal with Acts 2:38-39, Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Titus 3:5, Acts 22:16, 1Peter 3:21, etc., etc.).
You won't find baptism in the Law of Moses.
Referring to the Galatians passages you presented, do you ever see anyone warned that if you get water baptized, you will subject to the whole law? No, because everyone in Acts is immediately baptized as Jesus commanded. Yet we do see this with circumcision (circumcision with the intent of putting one's self under the law and following all of the ceremonial works). Circumcision otherwise is meaningless:
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Gal 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
We are now under the Law of Christ (also in your bible), the Law is written on the hearts of those who believe (prophesied in the OT by Jeremiah and Ezekiel and confirmed in the NT). The Law is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Jesus also said this about the law:
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Have you noticed that at least the earth is still here? Thus, the Law of Christ which fulfilled all of the Mosaic Laws and summed up by Love of God and Neighbor is still in effect.
You also seem to have a misunderstanding of Christian freedom. It is the freedom to be a slave of Christ. Jude warns those who abuse their freedom and grace:
Jud 1:4 For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Grace can be abused and turned into an excuse for licentiousness and wicked behavior. Those who do such things deny Jesus.
There you go, an explicit example of becoming reprobate by denying Jesus by our actions, not just by words.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Romans 2:11-16 "For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
Compare this to what Jesus said in Matthew 5, especially with respect to how things are to be now in His New Covenant.
God's Laws are written upon our hearts. And God will judge us by what He finds there - will it be Love for God (which is demonstrated by our obedience), or a love of sin?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Baptism is grace, the free gift of God which brings the Holy Spirit (Please refer to your bible, maybe some day you'll actually deal with Acts 2:38-39, Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Titus 3:5, Acts 22:16, 1Peter 3:21, etc., etc.).
You won't find baptism in the Law of Moses.
Referring to the Galatians passages you presented, do you ever see anyone warned that if you get water baptized, you will subject to the whole law? No, because everyone in Acts is immediately baptized as Jesus commanded. Yet we do see this with circumcision (circumcision with the intent of putting one's self under the law and following all of the ceremonial works). Circumcision otherwise is meaningless:
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Gal 5:5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
We are now under the Law of Christ (also in your bible), the Law is written on the hearts of those who believe (prophesied in the OT by Jeremiah and Ezekiel and confirmed in the NT). The Law is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Jesus also said this about the law:
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Have you noticed that at least the earth is still here? Thus, the Law of Christ which fulfilled all of the Mosaic Laws and summed up by Love of God and Neighbor is still in effect.
You also seem to have a misunderstanding of Christian freedom. It is the freedom to be a slave of Christ. Jude warns those who abuse their freedom and grace:
Jud 1:4 For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Grace can be abused and turned into an excuse for licentiousness and wicked behavior. Those who do such things deny Jesus.
There you go, an explicit example of becoming reprobate by denying Jesus by our actions, not just by words.
I think this post is a issue with the law and rituals VS the Love and mercy of Christ!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
No. This discussion about whether we want to honour Christ's New Covenant or not. We are not in the Old Covenant, we are not bound by it, nor do we practice the rituals of the Old Covenant.
We are part of the New Covenant and participate in the New Covenant Commandments and rituals as established by Christ.
If you think that there are none then explain the following:
Luke 22:19-20 "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."
Is this a "ritual" or just a general comment on Christ's part? And if a general comment, then why did the Apostles continue to do "this" after Christ's death and resurrection?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
No. This discussion about whether we want to honour Christ's New Covenant or not. We are not in the Old Covenant, we are not bound by it, nor do we practice the rituals of the Old Covenant.
We are part of the New Covenant and participate in the New Covenant Commandments and rituals as established by Christ.
If you think that there are none then explain the following:
Luke 22:19-20 "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."
Is this a "ritual" or just a general comment on Christ's part? And if a general comment, then why did the Apostles continue to do "this" after Christ's death and resurrection?
The Apostles learned how to do God will in contexts of the scriptures, and in 1 Corthians Jesus said do this as aften and in rememberance of ME!
That is not meaning that some magic show will happen or something supernatual like your catholic eucharist and getting wet!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 10/12/2009 13:19:45
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