water baptism or just belief?
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First Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Does water baptism saves?Does believing and faith alone saved?
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Bull, that is a vicious lie made up by Satan's spawn. Catholic teaching is that Christ was crucified once and for all. We only offer Christ's once and for all sacrifice in obedience to His request to us and in fulfillment of Malachi 1:11. It is you who makes demands from scripture that scripture does not support.
So it is based on your conditional obedience keep the laws and commandments to earn salvation or get saved one day?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
No. Jesus redeemed us all. We obey because Jesus asked us to and anyone who loves Jesus obeys Him - that is what it says in the Bible.
If we refuse to obey Him, then we are rejecting the covenant that He established with us. It is not that our salvation is contingent on our obedience, but rather that Hell is contingent upon our rejection of Christ's covenant. If we break the covenant, then why would we expect to reap the rewards of the covenant.
As for the Mass, it is one of the greatest gifts that Christ has given us. It is true that refusing to worship on the Lord's day is a violation of God's command, but participating in the Mass is an extraordinary blessing. To be part of something that joins Heaven and Earth in common worship, and joins us with all others who worship with us around the world in communion with Christ, is so awesome.
Throughout Salvation History - beginning with the earliest of God's people, the sacrifice/worthip has joined God and man in Communion by sharing a common meal. It is how God made Himself close to His people throughout the millenia. Now we have the greatest sacrificial offering that there could ever be and a such a deep and personal communion with Christ and the Trinity, I cannot see how you would not value it as the greatest opportunity a Christian could have. But I suppose it is because you failed to recognize it in the scriptures and mistook the spiritual for merely physical.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 07/22/2009 13:51:58
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 08/17/2005
Location: USA
My question, evangelist, is this: "Why would a person whom God has miraculously changed not want to obey?" Clearly, Jesus taught us to make disciples of all nations AND to baptize them using a trinitarian formula.
I don't think the water saves a person but I do believe that any person whom God has quickened by His Spirit and has given the gift of faith and belief will desire to follow our Lord's example in baptism because that is what Jesus commanded and taught.
So, for this reason, I would have a very difficult time believing that a person who refuses to be baptized has genuinely been saved.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
No. Jesus redeemed us all. We obey because Jesus asked us to and anyone who loves Jesus obeys Him - that is what it says in the Bible.
If we refuse to obey Him, then we are rejecting the covenant that He established with us. It is not that our salvation is contingent on our obedience, but rather that Hell is contingent upon our rejection of Christ's covenant. If we break the covenant, then why would we expect to reap the rewards of the covenant.
As for the Mass, it is one of the greatest gifts that Christ has given us. It is true that refusing to worship on the Lord's day is a violation of God's command, but participating in the Mass is an extraordinary blessing. To be part of something that joins Heaven and Earth in common worship, and joins us with all others who worship with us around the world in communion with Christ, is so awesome.
Throughout Salvation History - beginning with the earliest of God's people, the sacrifice/worthip has joined God and man in Communion by sharing a common meal. It is how God made Himself close to His people throughout the millenia. Now we have the greatest sacrificial offering that there could ever be and a such a deep and personal communion with Christ and the Trinity, I cannot see how you would not value it as the greatest opportunity a Christian could have. But I suppose it is because you failed to recognize it in the scriptures and mistook the spiritual for merely physical.
So do we get redeemed after we obey and do the covenant teaching or before when we first believed?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
We were all redeemed when Christ died for all. To be saved is another matter.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by revcort
My question, evangelist, is this: "Why would a person whom God has miraculously changed not want to obey?" Clearly, Jesus taught us to make disciples of all nations AND to baptize them using a trinitarian formula.
I don't think the water saves a person but I do believe that any person whom God has quickened by His Spirit and has given the gift of faith and belief will desire to follow our Lord's example in baptism because that is what Jesus commanded and taught.
So, for this reason, I would have a very difficult time believing that a person who refuses to be baptized has genuinely been saved.
But you do believe the truth that īgetting wet doesn't save a person??
Yes , Also agree that a christian should get wet or water baptized some time in thier christian walk!
BTW I got water baptized 3 times because I do believe in getting wer as a Christian just the last time I got baptized it was sincere, but the other two time I can up out the water a worser sinner and also was not saved with my heart. I just went through the religious process like many do!
Shalom REV!
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
We are to be baptized only once. And it is not the getting wet that saves, but what it brings about. Water baptism is united with spirit baptism, and when done properly we enter into Christ's Covenant.
We are saved because of Christ's Covenant with us. If we refuse to enter into the New Covenant in His Blood, then how can we be saved?
Anyone who believes will want to enter into that Covenant.
In the Old Covenant, what did cutting off a male's forskin accomplish? Nothing magical. It did not change anything. But it was the price of admission into the New Covenant. Men who converted to Judaism were not Jewish or in the Old Covenant until they were circumcized. They were not circumcized until after they made a profession of faith.
So too in the New Covenant, converts make a profession of faith first, and then they are baptized. Baptism is the price of admission into the New Covenant. Only this time it actually does something. We enter not only into Christ's covenant, but into Christ Himself.
That is why Jesus said that he who believes and is baptised shall be saved.
Everyone who is baptized in the manner prescribed by Christ (Trinitarian formula) is baptized into Christ. It is through baptism that we are baptized into Christ's death and are reborn.
Any who would seek to call themselves Christian without entering into the Covenant are deluding themselves. Those who believe, obey Christ, even if they do not fully understand all that He taught. It is the carnal mind that only sees the water, it takes Faith to recognize the Holy Ghost in action.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
We are to be baptized only once. And it is not the getting wet that saves, but what it brings about. Water baptism is united with spirit baptism, and when done properly we enter into Christ's Covenant.
We are saved because of Christ's Covenant with us. If we refuse to enter into the New Covenant in His Blood, then how can we be saved?
Anyone who believes will want to enter into that Covenant.
In the Old Covenant, what did cutting off a male's forskin accomplish? Nothing magical. It did not change anything. But it was the price of admission into the New Covenant. Men who converted to Judaism were not Jewish or in the Old Covenant until they were circumcized. They were not circumcized until after they made a profession of faith.
So too in the New Covenant, converts make a profession of faith first, and then they are baptized. Baptism is the price of admission into the New Covenant. Only this time it actually does something. We enter not only into Christ's covenant, but into Christ Himself.
That is why Jesus said that he who believes and is baptised shall be saved.
Everyone who is baptized in the manner prescribed by Christ (Trinitarian formula) is baptized into Christ. It is through baptism that we are baptized into Christ's death and are reborn.
Any who would seek to call themselves Christian without entering into the Covenant are deluding themselves. Those who believe, obey Christ, even if they do not fully understand all that He taught. It is the carnal mind that only sees the water, it takes Faith to recognize the Holy Ghost in action.
The bible does say there s one Lord and one baptism.
How do a RC get baptized in the Blood of Jesus??
But as you answer remember there is only one baptism and if you include getting wet there is two you must try to verify!
one love!
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Water and spirit are combined. The one action accomplishes both.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
John 19:34-35 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Jhn 19:35 And he that saw [it] bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe."
1 John 5:6-8 "This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Water and spirit are combined. The one action accomplishes both.
Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Notice it doesn't say those who are led by the water are sons of God!
Ro:8:15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro:8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Of course not. But how does that change anything? We are only baptized once. There is no need for the water repeated. But the Holy Spirit can come as often as He wishes.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Of course not. But how does that change anything? We are only baptized once. There is no need for the water repeated. But the Holy Spirit can come as often as He wishes.
So you can saved over and over again now by the Holy Spirit?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
The Holy Spirit can do anything it wants to. And who said that He only comes to save?
The Apostles received Him when Jesus gave Him to them when He breathed on them and granted them the authority to forgive and retain sins. But that did not stop the Holy Spirit from descending upon them again at Pentecost when the Church was inaugurated.
Are you suggesting that they needed to be saved again?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Holy Spirit can do anything it wants to. And who said that He only comes to save?
The Apostles received Him when Jesus gave Him to them when He breathed on them and granted them the authority to forgive and retain sins. But that did not stop the Holy Spirit from descending upon them again at Pentecost when the Church was inaugurated.
Are you suggesting that they needed to be saved again?
The blood of Jesus is what saves you do know that?
The Holy Spirit can do anything but it doesn't do anything out of His principles!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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