water baptism or just belief?
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Does water baptism saves?Does believing and faith alone saved?
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Location: Canada
And how does the "Blood" get to you?
Jesus gave us the hint when He bled blood and water from the Cross (John 19:34).
Revelations 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"
Titus 3:4-7 "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tts 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
Ephesians 5:25-17 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
John 4:10-14 "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Jhn 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
John 7:37-39 "In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
John 4:10-14 "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Jhn 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
John 7:37-39 [i][i]"In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
I know that this is a lot, but the Bible ties water and blood and spirit so much that it would be foolish to separate them.
The Bible shows us the Holy Spirit coming down at the laying of of hands. This happens at Baptism which is done with water. The water is a symbol for something more, and that something more becomes present with baptism.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Fifth Member
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Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
A bible lesson for Evangelist:
There are a plethora of verses in the bible concerning baptism and I can't find anywhere in the bible that it shows baptism to be a sign to others of your changed state. I only see one indirect reference (Paul speaking to Timothy) where a case could even be made.
Evan, you won't deal with bible verses, but try to post other unrelated verses and use your human philosophy to ignore the plain and often repeated verses in scripture.
Let's see if you take the bible as written. There are two verses that directly say that baptism is required for salvation (Mk 16:16, 1Pet 3:21) and zero verses that say baptism is just getting wet. Every instance of people getting saved in the New Testament includes baptism.
I will simply focus on one passage (for now) in the book of Acts. We've posted it many times, and it is just glossed over as potentially insignificant or not really meaning what it says.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him."
Repent and Be Baptized In verse 38 Repentance and Christian baptism is for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Can you refute what the scripture says Evan? Instead of jumping around through scripture looking for verses to refute these clear words, deal with this passage first. Even if you can find a verse that says something that seems to be different, you still have to come back and harmonize it with this. Catholics don't pit scripture against scripture because we don't have to. We use the entire bible and don't create doctrines out of single verses.
Again, the first question is: Does repentance and Christian baptism remit sins? If you don't think so, what is this passage really trying to say? Please back it up with what ever valid sources you can find.
The second question is: Does repentance and Christian baptism precede the gift of the Holy Spirit?
Let me just point out that the Greek language won't be very helpful to you. The word and (kai) conjoins repentance and baptism. It also conjoins remission of sins with the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Both repentance and baptism for the forgiveness of sins. The word "for" (eis) is the accusative case which always (without exception) means forward or progressing action. Thus Repentance and Christian Baptism bring about the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I know I've set forth a difficult challenge, but I'd really like to see where you will go with this passage.
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Hello jdubya
When a person just repents, and believes, and maybe is afraid to get dunk under water in a baptism at the time are they saved and born again?
Let me start with this first!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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PM
Member since 06/26/2002
so then sprinkle.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
That's right Evangelist. New Testament Christians are not bound by Old Testament legalism. Water is required and so is the Trinitarian forumula and the intent, but full submersion is not mandatory.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Fifth Member
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Member since 01/17/2007
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Whether Baptism is by immersion/dunking only or also by sprinkling/pouring is another topic. Let me just say that it would have been highly unlikely that 3,000 people baptized on the day of Pentacost were immersed by the leaders of the church in that geographical area. This is not the subject so please don't respond to this.
Evan, I would be only offering my opinion on the subject by speculating about somebody being afraid to be baptized. Anything that is not in the text is God's perogative, so I will leave those details up to Him. What we are dealing with here is Peter following through with the Great Commission to baptize. I feel if I go too far off the subject, that you will never give a direct response. So let's deal with the passage at hand.
First of all, Peter never commanded them to believe. Peter witnessed their reaction when the text says "they were cut to the heart" in response to charging them (as Jews) of crucifying Jesus. The Holy Spirit had convicted them of this sin of murdering their own Messiah, which caused them to inquire of Peter and the rest of the Apostles: "Brethren, what shall we do?"
At this point they believed they were guilty of this sin (as all of us are when we are not in Christ) and sought forgiveness. This was certainly an indication of belief.
Peter then told them what they should do. He didn't make any exceptions for those with water phobias. Considering how common washing rituals were to Jews, I think its a not even a question that needs to be discussed.
If they were truly sorry for the sin of murdering their Messiah, do you think they would be looking for excuses to avoid what Peter had commanded of them?
When the Holy Spirit convicted you of your sins, did you start making excuses why you couldn't trust God completely, and obey His words in scripture?
If you had bad knees and the Lord appeared to you, would you say "Lord, I would really like to get on my knees and bow down in worship, but I have these bad knees and the doctor told me to stay upright and use this cane....." or "I would like to get on my knees and bow down in worship, but that would be doing religious works which ain't gonna get me to heaven anyway" Of course you wouldn't, unless you really had no faith at all.
God is trying to give us this free gift of the Holy Spirit. Why would we make excuses?
Let's say God wants to give you an unmerited gift of $10,000,000. All you have to do is obey His command to go to the Post Office and pick it up. Would you go? Now compare that to submitting to baptism to have your sins forgiven and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit leading to eternal life? Which gift is more enticing?
Again, I am asking you to look at this passage and explain why it doesn't mean what the plain words say or why we can choose to ignore it. I don't get to arbitrate exceptions, that is God's domain. If I have the ability to do whatever He commands, I will do as He asks or as He reveals in scripture. Evan, you are the one that says that baptism is just getting wet (a 20th century Evangelical slogan) and optional. I have asked you to find that in scripture, but it isn't there. If it isn't there, then your insistence on preaching against it is a product of your own philosophy or one you learned from someone else. The worst thing about it, is that you mock baptism for reasons that can't be found in the bible.
Now would you please get back to the text of Acts 2:38 and answer the straight forward questions I have asked.
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Fifth Member
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Member since 01/17/2007
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Bump for Evan
Please don't avoid. If you are confident that you understand the scriptures, you should have a solid interpretation.
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Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
so then sprinkle.
Did Jesus sprinkle?
We should follow Jesus examples sooner or latter!
But if a person doesn't get baptized Mike, but they are saved believed born AGAIN , and fill with the Holy Spirit , do they go to hell?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
That's right Evangelist. New Testament Christians are not bound by Old Testament legalism. Water is required and so is the Trinitarian forumula and the intent, but full submersion is not mandatory.
So you admit that when a person who is saved from hell because they are born again, fill with the Holy Ghost speak with tongues and is a righteous saint now they will go to hell and eternal damnation because they didn't do the water baptism ritual which is the key to salvation and to heaven???
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
so then sprinkle.
Did Jesus sprinkle?
We should follow Jesus examples sooner or latter!
But if a person doesn't get baptized Mike, but they are saved believed born AGAIN , and fill with the Holy Spirit , do they go to hell?
one love
did jesus say not to sprinkle...?
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
That's right Evangelist. New Testament Christians are not bound by Old Testament legalism. Water is required and so is the Trinitarian forumula and the intent, but full submersion is not mandatory.
So you admit that when a person who is saved from hell because they are born again, fill with the Holy Ghost speak with tongues and is a righteous saint now they will go to hell and eternal damnation because they didn't do the water baptism ritual which is the key to salvation and to heaven???
one love
We are born again through baptism. Believing is not enough or Satan would be saved.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Fifth Member
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Location: USA
Being born again does not happen by your work of believing. Catholics don't believe we can save ourselves. Isn't it ironic who it is that actually teaches a belief only (your action) works salvation.
If we were born again just by believing Jesus would not have said this:
John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did;
24 but Jesus did not trust himself to them,
25 because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode'mus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicode'mus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
The bible wasn't written with chapter and verse distinctions and this is probably one place where I believe the separation is misplaced. The end of Chapter two is the setup for Nicodemus, who is a man who believed in Jesus name, but is an example of why Jesus wouldn't entrust Himself to man.
The story here is that believing was not enough. You have to be born from above, born again. Don't you see here Evan that Jesus is teaching that believing in His name is a human work that Jesus doesn't trust? What was the remedy? You must be born of water and spirit. Baptism with water which brings forth the Spirit.
John's Gospel flows from one teaching to the next.
John 1 John says that to all that received him, who believed in His name, He gave the power (the right) to become sons of God; those who were born of God. By believing in His name, we are not made sons of God, we are given the right to be or become sons of God by being born again.
John 1, Jesus is baptized (water and spirit).
John 2, Jesus performs a miracle with water from Jewish ritual bathing jars by turning them into wine.
John 3 Jesus says you must be born of water and spirit to enter or even see the kingdom of heaven.
John 3 Jesus goes out with His apostles and baptizes (with water)
John 3 Jesus says whoever believes in Him will have everlasting life.
John 3 Jesus says he who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God.
John 4 Jesus uses his disciples to baptize.
John 4 Jesus promises the woman at the well "living water" - the gift of God.
John 4 Jesus says whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." (the second instance of water is a metaphor for the spirit, what does the first instance of water refer to?).
John 6 Jesus performs the miracle with the fish and loaves of bread
John 6 Jesus teaches that the bread he will give for the life of the world is His flesh.
John 6 Jesus teaches that we must consume His body and blood to have eternal life.
Baptism and the Eucharist. Each preceeded by a miracle using the same substance (water - Baptism, bread - Eucharist)
Each is stated as a requirement for eternal life.
Evan, before you respond to this, please respond to my post on Acts 2:38 above (my previous post), which you have been avoiding.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
so then sprinkle.
Did Jesus sprinkle?
We should follow Jesus examples sooner or latter!
But if a person doesn't get baptized Mike, but they are saved believed born AGAIN , and fill with the Holy Spirit , do they go to hell?
one love
did jesus say not to sprinkle...?
Jesus did set the example and the way to get water baptized and he didn't teach sprinkles or drops!
So now can you answer my question????
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
That's right Evangelist. New Testament Christians are not bound by Old Testament legalism. Water is required and so is the Trinitarian forumula and the intent, but full submersion is not mandatory.
So you admit that when a person who is saved from hell because they are born again, fill with the Holy Ghost speak with tongues and is a righteous saint now they will go to hell and eternal damnation because they didn't do the water baptism ritual which is the key to salvation and to heaven???
one love
We are born again through baptism. Believing is not enough or Satan would be saved.
Satan doesn't have to believe he already knows before the earth was even made , remember he was also a angel in heaven.
That is why Paul ministry was an example for us because Paul had to believe on Jesus and wasn't like Peter and the other disciples who walked with Jesus.
Believing and faith alone is more than enough, unless you have another added gospel!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
Which added Gospel is this?
Jam 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.
20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Do you plan on responding to my posts above?
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