water baptism or just belief?
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First Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Does water baptism saves?Does believing and faith alone saved?
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
Jesus did set the example and the way to get water baptized and he didn't teach sprinkles or drops!
So now can you answer my question????
one love
i don't recall him actually giving us an exact method... only a command to be baptized in the the name of the father, son and holy spirit. there is no passage that says jesus was fully submerged, sprinkled or whatever... and to me only proves once again that the real legalist is you... on one hand you deny the need for baptism and on the other condemn doing it in practical ways. evangelicals are the modern pharisees.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
so then sprinkle.
Did Jesus sprinkle?
We should follow Jesus examples sooner or latter!
But if a person doesn't get baptized Mike, but they are saved believed born AGAIN , and fill with the Holy Spirit , do they go to hell?
one love
Actually Jesus had His followers do this.
John 4:1-3 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Jhn 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
Jhn 4:3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee."
And as for Paul, I remind you that before Paul preached a word of the Gospel, he was sent by Jesus to a member of the Church to be properly instructed and baptized.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
In deed, the first thing most Christians did when they believed in Christ was to get baptized. I wonder why that changed? And what heretic changed it?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Which added Gospel is this?
Jam 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.
20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Do you plan on responding to my posts above?
ADDED GOSPEL of self righteousness of religious work!
To use your mouth and use your heart is faith, which make you saved born again and redeemed, sanctified, holy righteous, and a son and daughter of God!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
Jesus did set the example and the way to get water baptized and he didn't teach sprinkles or drops!
So now can you answer my question????
one love
i don't recall him actually giving us an exact method... only a command to be baptized in the the name of the father, son and holy spirit. there is no passage that says jesus was fully submerged, sprinkled or whatever... and to me only proves once again that the real legalist is you... on one hand you deny the need for baptism and on the other condemn doing it in practical ways. evangelicals are the modern pharisees.
One again I admit , and quote , and say A Christian should get baptized, but the facts and truth is baptism is not required to getting saved, and that is why the bible and other leaders and teachers, bible scholars are against that requirement of getting wet!
Again baptism should be done, sooner or very latter!
Again baptism should be done, sooner or very latter!
Again baptism should be done, sooner or very latter!
Again baptism should be done, sooner or very latter!
Again baptism should be done, sooner or very latter!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
so then sprinkle.
Did Jesus sprinkle?
We should follow Jesus examples sooner or latter!
But if a person doesn't get baptized Mike, but they are saved believed born AGAIN , and fill with the Holy Spirit , do they go to hell?
one love
Actually Jesus had His followers do this.
John 4:1-3 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Jhn 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
Jhn 4:3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee."
And as for Paul, I remind you that before Paul preached a word of the Gospel, he was sent by Jesus to a member of the Church to be properly instructed and baptized.
Are you trying to say that Paul is trying to take over John the baptist teaching and traditions??
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Why should baptism be done if it is unconnected with salvation?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
In deed, the first thing most Christians did when they believed in Christ was to get baptized. I wonder why that changed? And what heretic changed it?
The religious churchy and the RCC and many other religious cults like mormons and the church of Christ!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
No. The Catholic Church firmly teaches that baptism should be done as soon as possible, and others do as well, so we are not the heretics who teach otherwise.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
No. The Catholic Church firmly teaches that baptism should be done as soon as possible, and others do as well, so we are not the heretics who teach otherwise.
But before a person get wet but believes in their heart accepted Jesus as Lord personally , is washed with the blood of Jesus in repentance of the heart and mouth confession which is the faith alone, and is justified at that momnet are they still going to hell because they didn't get water baptized???
remember also :
Ro:3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Also is water baptismo a law??
I know the bible doesn't contradict itself but it seems like the RCC make it contradict itself or there is a clear false interpretation by the RCC when they use James VS Romans with faith alone VS faith with merits and work!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 08/02/2009 03:33:21
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Water baptism is the means by which we enter into God's covenant, why would you reduce it to a work of the law?
And we are washed clean by the blood of the lamb through baptism.
In Matthew 13 we have the parable of the sower and its explanation. Many people hear the Good News and come to believe, but that belief does not always remain. Some are very excited in the beginning but their faith weakens and fall away.
That is why James says that we are NOT saved by Faith only. It is true that we are not saved by works of the Law, no one said otherwise. I am not obliged to pray so many Rosaries to get saved, or attend a particular number of prayer vigils. Or even be "good enough".
I do have to go to Church weekly; however, merely going to Church is not going to save me if I am busy living like a pagan the rest of the time.
To reduce God's commands and gifts to mere works of the law is foolishness. But more importantly, we Catholics do not do what we do in order to merit salvation. We do not earn our salvation, nor think that we do. It is not a case of racking up points in the hopes of getting into Heaven, but storing up treasure in Heaven and accessing the graces we need to travel this world to endure to the end.
The Good News is that by ourselve it would be impossible to be saved, but with Christ, all things are possible. I walk with Christ.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/26/2008
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
One again I admit , and quote , and say A Christian should get baptized, but the facts and truth is baptism is not required to getting saved, and that is why the bible and other leaders and teachers, bible scholars are against that requirement of getting wet!
A Christian should get baptized
baptism is not required 
To get there drive 40 miles down this road & the first intersection you get to, which is a 4 road intersection with no other or intersections for 40 miles, you should make a left but making a left is not required. Just as directions like this leave one wandering what to do, Protestants are left wandering what to do with beliefs that say a Christian should get baptized baptism is not required. Confusion is what they are left with to believe into in their protest with the Catholic Church. Since they protest the logical beliefs of the Catholic Church they are left with illogical nonsense beliefs that are confusing.
What you said is nonsense. It makes no sense.
Why are you trying to convince us to believe in some belief that makes no sense what so ever?
The Catholic Church teachings on baptism make perfect sense.
Protestants will believe in something that they know does not make any sense out of protest of the Catholic Church.
Edited by michael on 08/02/2009 22:53:44
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Michael's right, Evangelist, you and others have a very confusing of how things are to be.
Not all who come to belief remain in belief. The ones who are saved are the ones who not only believe but make a commitment from that belief (or their parents).
Jesus is the Groom, the Church is the Bride. If we want to enter into the wedding feast of the Lord, just saying "I love you" (I believe) is not enough, we must make a commitment to Christ which is what we do at baptism.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Which added Gospel is this?
Jam 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.
20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Do you plan on responding to my posts above?
ADDED GOSPEL of self righteousness of religious work!
To use your mouth and use your heart is faith, which make you saved born again and redeemed, sanctified, holy righteous, and a son and daughter of God!
one love
So the bible is added works righteousness. Again, your statements carry no weight. You continue to avoid what scripture teaches. All of scripture is inspired, thus you can't pluck out verses about believing and ignore those about baptism washing away our sins and saving us.
So Jesus commanded us to do works of righteousness when he commanded the apostles to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them? Works righteousness when Peter said repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit? When Paul was commanded to arise and be baptized to wash away his sins?
How can we take you seriously when your statements ignore so many passages from scripture. I gave you just one passage from Acts 2:38 and you have either not found a web link that refutes it or you know you have no answers. You've been avoiding it for over a week now just hoping I won't remember.
How can we have biblical or theological discussion if you simply state a position and can't back it up from scripture. Then you avoid giving an answer and dig in your heels and state the same things over and over. Ask the Lord to help you understand, and if He gives you a different answer, then trust Him instead of the preachers and amateur internet authors that you rely on so much.
We can back up everything we say with scripture, yet a recent thread you started basically calls us non-Christian. Is your remaing purpose on this forum just to tweak us? I don't see much of a desire to engage in meaningful biblical discussion.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Water baptism is the means by which we enter into God's covenant, why would you reduce it to a work of the law?
And we are washed clean by the blood of the lamb through baptism.
In Matthew 13 we have the parable of the sower and its explanation. Many people hear the Good News and come to believe, but that belief does not always remain. Some are very excited in the beginning but their faith weakens and fall away.
That is why James says that we are NOT saved by Faith only. It is true that we are not saved by works of the Law, no one said otherwise. I am not obliged to pray so many Rosaries to get saved, or attend a particular number of prayer vigils. Or even be "good enough".
I do have to go to Church weekly; however, merely going to Church is not going to save me if I am busy living like a pagan the rest of the time.
To reduce God's commands and gifts to mere works of the law is foolishness. But more importantly, we Catholics do not do what we do in order to merit salvation. We do not earn our salvation, nor think that we do. It is not a case of racking up points in the hopes of getting into Heaven, but storing up treasure in Heaven and accessing the graces we need to travel this world to endure to the end.
The Good News is that by ourselve it would be impossible to be saved, but with Christ, all things are possible. I walk with Christ.
So if a person doesn't get baptized they are still lost even though they believe with all their hearts love the Lord,confessed their sins, repented with their hearts and are still lost because they didn't get wet, and didn't do the water baptism ritual of works?????
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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