water baptism or just belief?
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First Member
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Does water baptism saves?Does believing and faith alone saved?
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by michael
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
One again I admit , and quote , and say A Christian should get baptized, but the facts and truth is baptism is not required to getting saved, and that is why the bible and other leaders and teachers, bible scholars are against that requirement of getting wet!
A Christian should get baptized
baptism is not required 
To get there drive 40 miles down this road & the first intersection you get to, which is a 4 road intersection with no other or intersections for 40 miles, you should make a left but making a left is not required. Just as directions like this leave one wandering what to do, Protestants are left wandering what to do with beliefs that say a Christian should get baptized baptism is not required. Confusion is what they are left with to believe into in their protest with the Catholic Church. Since they protest the logical beliefs of the Catholic Church they are left with illogical nonsense beliefs that are confusing.
What you said is nonsense. It makes no sense.
Why are you trying to convince us to believe in some belief that makes no sense what so ever?
The Catholic Church teachings on baptism make perfect sense.
Protestants will believe in something that they know does not make any sense out of protest of the Catholic Church.
What you and your church is doing is adding on a added religious work or merit to qualify for salvation, and at the same time say you don't work for your salvation, thst is confusion from the pit of hell!
Water baptism is good but no way a requirement to be saved.
Where does it say any where in the bible if you don't get wet you are damned to hell and you are a sinner because you didn't do the outward work of baptism??
one love
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
What work. We must be baptized to enter into the New Covenant, it how we die to sin and have our old sin washed away.
But baptism only applies what Jesus did for us. It is His work. We just benefit from it.
Baptism is an extraordinary gift from God. It is free. No charge.
Through baptism our sins are washed away, we die to sin and rise with Christ and become united in Christ in His New Covenant.
If baptism does not save, then why does Jesus and Peter both say that it does - it the Bible in error?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
What work. We must be baptized to enter into the New Covenant, it how we die to sin and have our old sin washed away.
But baptism only applies what Jesus did for us. It is His work. We just benefit from it.
Baptism is an extraordinary gift from God. It is free. No charge.
Through baptism our sins are washed away, we die to sin and rise with Christ and become united in Christ in His New Covenant.
If baptism does not save, then why does Jesus and Peter both say that it does - it the Bible in error?
No! the bible is not in error it the religion and a man made theology of religious works!
If the blood of Jesus wash our sins away isn't that enough or does Jesus need water to help His blood to function?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Baptism is HOW Christ's blood washes away our sins. Belief alone does not do this and the Bible as a whole does not say this.
It is your manmade theology that says otherwise.
Belief does not bring down the Holy Ghost - Acts 19 proves this definitively.
Belief does not wash away our sins, the Bible does not say that.
Belief for many is only Temporary, the Parable of the Sower shows this. Belief alone is not sufficient.
But those who truly have faith will show their commitment to Christ by entering into His Covenant with Him by getting baptized.
And you are somewhat of a hypocrite. You frequently pass out Jack Chick tracts to new Christians even knowing that instead of Baptism, Jack requires that new Christians make a profession of faith which he includes on his website.
The Bible states that baptism saves, but there is no such thing as a sinner's prayer in the Bible. And no guarantees that making such a profession and signing it is going to bring anyone into the New Covenant. Baptism is the means prescribed and anyone who teaches otherwise is a false teacher.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
If a Christian has not been baptized, their sins have not yet been washed away by the Blood of the Lamb.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Baptism is HOW Christ's blood washes away our sins. Belief alone does not do this and the Bible as a whole does not say this.
It is your manmade theology that says otherwise.
Belief does not bring down the Holy Ghost - Acts 19 proves this definitively.
Belief does not wash away our sins, the Bible does not say that.
Belief for many is only Temporary, the Parable of the Sower shows this. Belief alone is not sufficient.
But those who truly have faith will show their commitment to Christ by entering into His Covenant with Him by getting baptized.
And you are somewhat of a hypocrite. You frequently pass out Jack Chick tracts to new Christians even knowing that instead of Baptism, Jack requires that new Christians make a profession of faith which he includes on his website.
The Bible states that baptism saves, but there is no such thing as a sinner's prayer in the Bible. And no guarantees that making such a profession and signing it is going to bring anyone into the New Covenant. Baptism is the means prescribed and anyone who teaches otherwise is a false teacher.
Why didn't Paul set the first example of a water baptism requirement to a washing of sins in :
1 Corinthians 1:17 (NKJV)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
Also why was not a water baptismo ritual included in 1 Cor 15 when taught the wholke gospel there??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
If a Christian has not been baptized, their sins have not yet been washed away by the Blood of the Lamb.
So let me understand you clearly.
You mean if a person believes with all their heart repent with their heart and have faith by confession of their mouth, by asking God to forgive them of their sins and ask God to wash them with Jesus blood spirititually they are still not saved and their sins are not forgiven because they didn't get water baptized???
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/26/2008
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Baptism is HOW Christ's blood washes away our sins. Belief alone does not do this and the Bible as a whole does not say this.
It is your manmade theology that says otherwise.
Belief does not bring down the Holy Ghost - Acts 19 proves this definitively.
Belief does not wash away our sins, the Bible does not say that.
Belief for many is only Temporary, the Parable of the Sower shows this. Belief alone is not sufficient.
But those who truly have faith will show their commitment to Christ by entering into His Covenant with Him by getting baptized.
And you are somewhat of a hypocrite. You frequently pass out Jack Chick tracts to new Christians even knowing that instead of Baptism, Jack requires that new Christians make a profession of faith which he includes on his website.
The Bible states that baptism saves, but there is no such thing as a sinner's prayer in the Bible. And no guarantees that making such a profession and signing it is going to bring anyone into the New Covenant. Baptism is the means prescribed and anyone who teaches otherwise is a false teacher.
Why didn't Paul set the first example of a water baptism requirement to a washing of sins in :
1 Corinthians 1:17 (NKJV)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
Also why was not a water baptismo ritual included in 1 Cor 15 when taught the wholke gospel there??
one love
Most converts were baptized by Paul’s helpers. Paul ordinarily delegated the baptism of converts to his assistants, his task as an apostle being to evangelize.
The reference to baptism & the contrast with preaching the gospel in v 17 suggest that some Corinthians were paying special allegiance to the individuals who initiated them into the community.
Paul did baptize in the verse you left out v16
1 Cor 6:11
"But you were washed, you were sanctified,"
Edited by michael on 08/06/2009 07:15:23
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Baptism is HOW Christ's blood washes away our sins. Belief alone does not do this and the Bible as a whole does not say this.
It is your manmade theology that says otherwise.
Belief does not bring down the Holy Ghost - Acts 19 proves this definitively.
Belief does not wash away our sins, the Bible does not say that.
Belief for many is only Temporary, the Parable of the Sower shows this. Belief alone is not sufficient.
But those who truly have faith will show their commitment to Christ by entering into His Covenant with Him by getting baptized.
And you are somewhat of a hypocrite. You frequently pass out Jack Chick tracts to new Christians even knowing that instead of Baptism, Jack requires that new Christians make a profession of faith which he includes on his website.
The Bible states that baptism saves, but there is no such thing as a sinner's prayer in the Bible. And no guarantees that making such a profession and signing it is going to bring anyone into the New Covenant. Baptism is the means prescribed and anyone who teaches otherwise is a false teacher.
Why didn't Paul set the first example of a water baptism requirement to a washing of sins in :
1 Corinthians 1:17 (NKJV)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
Also why was not a water baptismo ritual included in 1 Cor 15 when taught the wholke gospel there??
one love
Paul did better than that. In Acts, the first thing Paul had to do before preaching the Gospel was to get baptized.
After Jesus blinded Saul of Tarsus on that road to Demascus, Jesus did not tell Paul to go forth and teach all nations, He instructed Saul/Paul to go to a Christian disciple to learn the truth and to get baptized.
Ever person that read or heard those letters that Paul wrote, were ALREADY BAPTIZED CHRISTIANS. There was no need to tell them that they needed to get baptized - the Gospel account that Paul carried with him from city to city already included Christ's teachings on Baptism.
1 Corinthians 15 is not the whole Gospel. It does contain important elements that every Baptized Christian should know, but that is a far cry from being the totality of the Gospel.
In Acts, the Eunuch from Ethiopia, after having heard the Gospel message from Philip, saw water and immediately asked to be baptized. Are you going to tell me that Paul taught a different gospel than Philip?
The letters are supplements to direct face-to-face teachings. Paul did not write any letters to places he had not already been. These were places where he taught the full gospel extensively and explained it repeatedly. It seems that Corinth needed more help than others in remembering what they had been taught, but he first taught them face to face.
And none of those letters replace the actual gospel accounts given by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They provide explanation and encouragement, but are not in themselves a "gospel".
This in part why Paul was glad that he had not baptized very many in 1 Corinthians 1:14. Jesus came down from Heaven and spent a short lifetime among us, and spent three years teaching His disicples what they needed to know and teach and do (as in "Baptize all nations") and here you are ignoring much of what Jesus actually said in favour of a few out-of-context snippets from Paul.
Paul did not die on the Cross for your sins. He was eventually martyred, but his death does not help you, only Christ's death counts. So too, the New Covenant is what Christ taught. It is what Christ came down here to offer. It is sealed in His own blood. Paul can only preach what Christ taught His Apostles. Paul is NOT the author of the New Covenant.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
If a Christian has not been baptized, their sins have not yet been washed away by the Blood of the Lamb.
So let me understand you clearly.
You mean if a person believes with all their heart repent with their heart and have faith by confession of their mouth, by asking God to forgive them of their sins and ask God to wash them with Jesus blood spirititually they are still not saved and their sins are not forgiven because they didn't get water baptized???
one love
The Catholic Church preaches baptism by desire, which means that if a Christian truly did not know that he or she needed to get baptized, or did not have the opportunity through no fault of their own, but would have if they had known and/or had the opportunity, thely may be saved.
However, I do not know that the Bible makes any such provision other than giving the Church the authority to bind and loose.
Baptism is the entrance into the New Covenant, just as circumcision was for the Old Covenant.
In the Old Testament, God stated that anyone who was to be part of the Old Covenant did not get circumcized, they were cut off from God's people and declared to have broken God's covenant.
In plain English, if we do not enter in God's covenant, we are NOT saved. We must enter into it and this we do today through Baptism.
You cannot pay lipservice to God and expect Him to honour a private side deal with Him. God did not promise to make multiple new covenants, or to honour any man-made covenant. Paul confirms that we enter into Christ through Baptism. Any other way is just man-made wishful thinking.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/26/2008
Location: USA
1 Cor 12:13
[13] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by michael
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Baptism is HOW Christ's blood washes away our sins. Belief alone does not do this and the Bible as a whole does not say this.
It is your manmade theology that says otherwise.
Belief does not bring down the Holy Ghost - Acts 19 proves this definitively.
Belief does not wash away our sins, the Bible does not say that.
Belief for many is only Temporary, the Parable of the Sower shows this. Belief alone is not sufficient.
But those who truly have faith will show their commitment to Christ by entering into His Covenant with Him by getting baptized.
And you are somewhat of a hypocrite. You frequently pass out Jack Chick tracts to new Christians even knowing that instead of Baptism, Jack requires that new Christians make a profession of faith which he includes on his website.
The Bible states that baptism saves, but there is no such thing as a sinner's prayer in the Bible. And no guarantees that making such a profession and signing it is going to bring anyone into the New Covenant. Baptism is the means prescribed and anyone who teaches otherwise is a false teacher.
Why didn't Paul set the first example of a water baptism requirement to a washing of sins in :
1 Corinthians 1:17 (NKJV)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
Also why was not a water baptismo ritual included in 1 Cor 15 when taught the wholke gospel there??
one love
Most converts were baptized by Paul’s helpers. Paul ordinarily delegated the baptism of converts to his assistants, his task as an apostle being to evangelize.
The reference to baptism & the contrast with preaching the gospel in v 17 suggest that some Corinthians were paying special allegiance to the individuals who initiated them into the community.
Paul did baptize in the verse you left out v16
1 Cor 6:11
"But you were washed, you were sanctified,"
Where is that in 1cor 15?
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
If a Christian has not been baptized, their sins have not yet been washed away by the Blood of the Lamb.
So let me understand you clearly.
You mean if a person believes with all their heart repent with their heart and have faith by confession of their mouth, by asking God to forgive them of their sins and ask God to wash them with Jesus blood spirititually they are still not saved and their sins are not forgiven because they didn't get water baptized???
one love
The Catholic Church preaches baptism by desire, which means that if a Christian truly did not know that he or she needed to get baptized, or did not have the opportunity through no fault of their own, but would have if they had known and/or had the opportunity, thely may be saved.
However, I do not know that the Bible makes any such provision other than giving the Church the authority to bind and loose.
Baptism is the entrance into the New Covenant, just as circumcision was for the Old Covenant.
In the Old Testament, God stated that anyone who was to be part of the Old Covenant did not get circumcized, they were cut off from God's people and declared to have broken God's covenant.
In plain English, if we do not enter in God's covenant, we are NOT saved. We must enter into it and this we do today through Baptism.
You cannot pay lipservice to God and expect Him to honour a private side deal with Him. God did not promise to make multiple new covenants, or to honour any man-made covenant. Paul confirms that we enter into Christ through Baptism. Any other way is just man-made wishful thinking.
So if a person knows they should get water baptized and has a chance , but don't get baptized even when they repented with thier heart and believe, with fact they are still lost and a sinner at best??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Yes. Why would anyone claiming to be a Christian and knows that they should get water baptized and has the opportunity to get water baptized and then chooses to not do this, then how can they be a Christian.
A Christian believes in Christ and trusts in what Christ asks of him or her. No action = no trust = no belief.
In the Bible, the first thing that Christians who heard the Gospel message wanted was to be baptized without delay. What changed? False teachers came around and told them that it was not important.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Yes. Why would anyone claiming to be a Christian and knows that they should get water baptized and has the opportunity to get water baptized and then chooses to not do this, then how can they be a Christian.
A Christian believes in Christ and trusts in what Christ asks of him or her. No action = no trust = no belief.
In the Bible, the first thing that Christians who heard the Gospel message wanted was to be baptized without delay. What changed? False teachers came around and told them that it was not important.
bible teaching!
believe + trust = saved and then ACTIONS!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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