water baptism or just belief?
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First Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Does water baptism saves?Does believing and faith alone saved?
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Yes. But without the actions, a person is not saved. So either you can think that such a person was not saved in the first place or that such a person lost their salvation. Whatever makes you happy.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Yes. But without the actions, a person is not saved. So either you can think that such a person was not saved in the first place or that such a person lost their salvation. Whatever makes you happy.
It is not a matter of what make me happy it is the gospel which makes everyone more than happy!
That is why I included actions in my post but at the right point and place.
Just like I would not put going to church saves you or reading the bible as actions first, no!!!! I put the key to salvation and that is believing, with faith alone, and at that point you are in heaven gates!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
We are not saved by our actions, but nor are we saved by Faith only.
In deed even the actions can cause problems if we are doing them for the wrong reasons. Going to church each week is a command of God, but if we live like pagans the rest of the time, it becomes lipservice and not of benefit to us.
Getting baptized does save - the Bible says so. But a Mulsim getting baptized in the name of Allah would not accomplish anything other than getting wet.
Doing good deeds all day long in the hopes of being "good enough" is not a proper way of thinking, and is not Catholic teaching. But claiming to to believe in Christ and then treating our neighbours like dirt is evidence that one does not believe in Christ, but is only paying lipservice.
Jesus made it simple, He said that we must be baptized and ordered His Apostles to ensure that this was done so new Christians would not have to guess at what was required, and He told all of us that if we obey the two Great Commandments, we could have the whole of the Law covered. Piece of cake.
If I love God with all my heart, body, soul and mind, and love my neighbours as myself - how can I commit a sin against them? And if I put my full trust in Jesus, the Holy Spirit will keep me on the straight and narrow path. Easy.
You understand the importance of works and agree that we must do them, but then say it is not important to our salvation. That is a bit of a mixed signal. And not really fair to your followers. Based on our conversations you have been doing what God wants you to. Clearly you have been guided to do what is necessary and given the Grace to comply. And yet you preach a false gospel to your followers who may be weaker in faith than you are and instead of feeding them with the whole Word of God, you feed them piecemeal, fragmented doctrines that cannot edify them.
In essence you have put an unnecessary stumbling block in front of them. If your words cause any of them to stumble you know what the Bible warns about such teachers.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
We are not saved by our actions, but nor are we saved by Faith only.
In deed even the actions can cause problems if we are doing them for the wrong reasons. Going to church each week is a command of God, but if we live like pagans the rest of the time, it becomes lipservice and not of benefit to us.
Getting baptized does save - the Bible says so. But a Mulsim getting baptized in the name of Allah would not accomplish anything other than getting wet.
Doing good deeds all day long in the hopes of being "good enough" is not a proper way of thinking, and is not Catholic teaching. But claiming to to believe in Christ and then treating our neighbours like dirt is evidence that one does not believe in Christ, but is only paying lipservice.
Jesus made it simple, He said that we must be baptized and ordered His Apostles to ensure that this was done so new Christians would not have to guess at what was required, and He told all of us that if we obey the two Great Commandments, we could have the whole of the Law covered. Piece of cake.
If I love God with all my heart, body, soul and mind, and love my neighbours as myself - how can I commit a sin against them? And if I put my full trust in Jesus, the Holy Spirit will keep me on the straight and narrow path. Easy.
You understand the importance of works and agree that we must do them, but then say it is not important to our salvation. That is a bit of a mixed signal. And not really fair to your followers. Based on our conversations you have been doing what God wants you to. Clearly you have been guided to do what is necessary and given the Grace to comply. And yet you preach a false gospel to your followers who may be weaker in faith than you are and instead of feeding them with the whole Word of God, you feed them piecemeal, fragmented doctrines that cannot edify them.
In essence you have put an unnecessary stumbling block in front of them. If your words cause any of them to stumble you know what the Bible warns about such teachers.
I lead people to the love of God and show them what they already have and already won, and have victory and joy and that is why they do what they do in righteous because they ger thankful for who they are in Christ and their motive is to love God and that automactically make them want to serve God to their best with all their hearts and soul!
Sorry I don't teach, fear,legalism, laws, commANDMENt breakers or commandment doers, and showing other how to follow rules and regulation or else hell and damnation or alice and wonderland!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
So long as they do the works that God has prepared for them, then that is a wonderful thing. But if any fail to do in righteousness because you or someone else told them that it was not important, then God will hold that against you.
We do not need to fear God, but the biggest sign that the Holy Ghost is in us and working in us is that we will fear and tremble.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
So long as they do the works that God has prepared for them, then that is a wonderful thing. But if any fail to do in righteousness because you or someone else told them that it was not important, then God will hold that against you.
We do not need to fear God, but the biggest sign that the Holy Ghost is in us and working in us is that we will fear and tremble.
So you are think God judge on our outward actions more than our hearts.
It is like look at a rotten apple looking good on the outside but when you open the apple it could be more judge as good or bad by the inside, and this is how God look at us from the principle of what is inside of us and not the outside appearances!
We can't know a book niether from the cover!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Quotr FAL
quote:
And while baptism is a physical act, once done how can you say it is an outward thing - one cannot tell who has been baptized just by looking at them. God can, but we cannot. We should be able to tell over a period of time by the fruits of their lives, but sometimes people do not remain true to their baptism for periods of time.
I am very glad you know this and this is why an outward baptism can't be a requirement to repentance only as you also see it is a heart issue.
That is exactly why I got baptized three times and on the third time i gave my heart for real for Jesus and was baptized in His blood and then I showed other from the outside what Jesus blood did with my third baptism, and lived the life as a real Christian.
Making a statement like some people don't remain true to their baptism is putting burden on christians and tht will bring condemnation, and quilt, sadness and worry, if really remaining truthful.
That is not goog news and the true gospel is too good to be true!
Let me ask you is the baptism of the blood of Jesus the same as a water baptism ?
Which one is stronger or does the real effected work before God??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Yes. Water baptism is the means by which we are baptized into Christ and washed clean by His Blood. Both are connected in a single act, and ultimately this act of water baptism is spiritual - do not let the outward sign blind you to its inward reality.
The Gift that Jesus gave us is the ability to abide in Him. Any Christian that does not remain true to their baptism does so by rejecting Christ; however, so long as they are alive, there is the chance that the indelible mark given to them at baptism may yet call them back to repentence.
There are many stories of wayward Christians who returned to their faith in their old age or otherwise near their approaching death.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Yes. Water baptism is the means by which we are baptized into Christ and washed clean by His Blood. Both are connected in a single act, and ultimately this act of water baptism is spiritual - do not let the outward sign blind you to its inward reality.
The Gift that Jesus gave us is the ability to abide in Him. Any Christian that does not remain true to their baptism does so by rejecting Christ; however, so long as they are alive, there is the chance that the indelible mark given to them at baptism may yet call them back to repentence.
There are many stories of wayward Christians who returned to their faith in their old age or otherwise near their approaching death.
if they both are in one act what happens when they just get baptized in the blood is that invalid until they get wet???
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
They happen at the same time. God set it up that way. If you try to separate them then you have neither.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
They happen at the same time. God set it up that way. If you try to separate them then you have neither.
Don't you see that it is the blood of Jesus which really saves a person and forgive them of all thier sin first?
You are saying they are only forgiven of thier sins when they do both at the same time, so if a person dies before they get water baptized but made a confession of faith with belief they are still lost??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
It is the blood of Jesus that saves. And it is applied through water baptism.
If a person legitimately is unable to be baptized before dying, but has come to Faith, the Catholic Church holds that Jesus may be merciful and grant them Baptism by Desire.
We do not put limitations on what God can do. But if any refuse baptism or put it off without good cause, that man or woman has rejected the covenant. The only hope for them is if they were truly ignorant.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
It is the blood of Jesus that saves. And it is applied through water baptism.
If a person legitimately is unable to be baptized before dying, but has come to Faith, the Catholic Church holds that Jesus may be merciful and grant them Baptism by Desire.
We do not put limitations on what God can do. But if any refuse baptism or put it off without good cause, that man or woman has rejected the covenant. The only hope for them is if they were truly ignorant.
God does have mercy on the ignorant , and He loves them as well!
God does not go against His own principles, and He is a just God to those who don't act correct ,because He looks at thier hearts not thier actions.
He does accept the full action of Christ for us!
Water baptism is a witness to what happen in us when we got saved and got salvation!
It is a good thing to be a Jesus witness and tell others of the good news , but it is not a requirement as getting saved , but it is what saved people do sooner or latter.
one love
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Jesus said it, I believe it.
And all of the first Christians rushed to get Baptized, so clearly they did not hold your view.
It is how we enter into the New Covenant, and it is how we receive the Holy Ghost. So unless you think you can be saved indpendently of Christ's covenant and the Holy Ghost, I do not see how you can think that a person who trods Christ's covenant requirements underfoot is "saved".
The Bible says that there will be many who leap for joy for the love of Christ who will later fall away and be damned. So clearly there is a need to make a commitment.
I don't need a peice of paper to tell me that I love my husband, but without that peice of paper (marriage certificate), we are not actually married and my profession of love is just words without substance.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Jesus said it, I believe it.
And all of the first Christians rushed to get Baptized, so clearly they did not hold your view.
It is how we enter into the New Covenant, and it is how we receive the Holy Ghost. So unless you think you can be saved indpendently of Christ's covenant and the Holy Ghost, I do not see how you can think that a person who trods Christ's covenant requirements underfoot is "saved".
The Bible says that there will be many who leap for joy for the love of Christ who will later fall away and be damned. So clearly there is a need to make a commitment.
I don't need a peice of paper to tell me that I love my husband, but without that peice of paper (marriage certificate), we are not actually married and my profession of love is just words without substance.
But what made your marriage true, it was the love for one another and saying with word I do or saying I am married to you or that person and the rest is just the legal and outward celebration of what you said with your mouth and heart.
You said yourself that my marriage analogy was a very good one remember?
Kee that analogy in you mind and think the same analogy as we marry Jesus , the same .principle are done as such.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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