water baptism or just belief?

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

The marriage analogy is an excellent one. But remember, if we do not have the marriage ceremony and make that commitment public, then we are not married.

For our marriage to endure, we must have that love and commitment in our hearts. But claiming to have that and not go through the ceremony shows that our hearts are not ready to commit.

If anyone wants to be saved, they must be willing to commit fully to Christ. Not just in private, but within the Christian community.

Jesus Christ did not let Paul teach until he had first gone to the Church and become baptized.

On many occassion in the New Testament, the sign/evidence of anyone's coming to Christ was their desire and action to be baptized.

The Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of hands at baptism. Only once did it preceed baptism as a sign that Gentiles could be baptized.

Baptism is a sign. You know that it is. So how can anyone be saved if they are unwilling to take on that sign that marks them as a Christian, that enters one into Christ's mystical body and Christ's covenant?

The Bible records Jesus "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved..." How can you dismiss what Christ has said?

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Really you need to take that argument up with the Apostle Paul who did preach a gospel of water baptism requirement, but preach Christ death ,burial and resurrection to gentiles and Jews!

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Evangelist, you gave perfect examples of men and women who sought to be "united" in the eyes of men, but refused to invite God into their marriage. Do you think that God would be happy with this enormous insult? They shut God out, deliberately.

And those that sought to just shack up. That wasn't commitment, that was pure undulterated LUST. There was no commitment. Even if they remained forever for 50 years, that is not proof of commitment. Any two people can live together for 50 years. A marriage is more than that.

You do not need a ring, but you do need a presider and witnesses. And if the presider is not there on God's behalf, then God wasn't invited.

And I do not need to take it up with Paul because he would agree with me. And a freudian slip shows that you know it too.

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Really you need to take that argument up with the Apostle Paul who did preach a gospel of water baptism requirement, but preach Christ death ,burial and resurrection to gentiles and Jews!

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A Christian has no part of that death, burial and resurrection UNLESS he has been baptized. Paul said so.

Romans 6:3-5 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:"

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

The ring is a modern symbol of marriage, but the ceremony is required. It does not have to be fancy, but it has to be done. Otherwise, one is NOT married.

Putting on the rings as a sign is good, but first I had to get married. Saying I wanted to get married was not enough. Saying I loved my husband, and even meaning it at the time, was not enough. I was not married until I stood with my husband in front of witnesses and exchanged our vows. And it was not a covenant, until I did so with a proper representative of Christ's Church in attendance as a presider.

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metanoe#333; [Strong's G3340 - metanoe#333;]

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

I got my marriage certificate at a government office, but I was not married until I stood before my Faith community with my husband and said our vows.

A piece of paper is a legal requirement. If my certificate burned up in a fire, I would still be married. If my ring was burned in a fire and melted, or was stolen or otherwise lost - I would still be married.

But if my man and I purchased rings from a store and just pretended to be married and just shacked up, we would not be married.

Shacking up is not married. It is just make believe.

Getting married by a justice of the peace is legally married, but it is not a covenant. God was not invited and He has no part in that marriage unless the couple invite Him in. At least with that, although God was not invited and therefore may be insulted, there is a ceremony and the couple may be considered married before the eyes of the Law. And they can bring God in if they choose to.

I have a baptismal certificate, but that is only a piece of paper that affirms that I have been baptized; however, the baptism itself left an indelible mark on my soul. Like my marriage, my baptism was also done within my Faith community and not done as a private, selfish gesture.

Those that claim Jesus but do not seek baptism are not IN Jesus. They are only playing house with Jesus and hoping that He plays along. But that is a rather huge hope. Jesus never said that He would play house with anyone. He has a relationship with the Church He founded, and with all of its members by Baptism.

Baptism is the Biblical way of entering into Christ's covenant. One does not enter in by saying Lord, Lord..., the Bible even says that - how many times have I quoted you that passage that shows that NOT everyone who says Lord Lord will enter into Heaven? In that passage, it even mentions specifically those who cast out demons in Christ's name and performed other miracles.

Jesus is the Good Shepherd, He knows His and they know Him. One of the ways that He knows them is that they love Him and abide in Him.

On our own, we could not possibly be all the God asks of us, but with Christ all things are possible.

Jesus paid the debt to sin for every adulterer, fornicator, whoremongerer and witch as well as everyone else. The first step to avail ourselves of that redemption is to repent.

To repent is not simply recognizing our sins:

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metanoe#333; [Strong's G3340 - metanoe#333;]

1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

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When one amends their life, they change how they live for the better. If they have committed a sin in the past, they cease from committing that sin and turn from it.

If someone recognises their sin but does not change their ways, they have NOT repented and still belong to Satan.

Before anyone should consider themselves "saved", even you agree that they must repent at least once at their conversion. If one has not experienced a change of heart, they have not repented yet and do not yet belong to Christ.

Any one who has truly repented of their sins, will continue to feel the need to repent should they be tempted in the future. If they just "feel bad" but do not do anything about it, then they have not made that commitment to Christ.

Many do refuse baptism because they are not ready to commit to Christ. But I would hate for anyone to refuse baptism because someone said it was only a symbol and did not truly matter.

Jesus Christ is the Bridegroom. He never said that He just wanted to play house, He wants a real wedding with a real Bride that is His Church. No baptism = no wedding. And if you did not have a wedding, you are NOT married.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

The ring is a poor analogy because it is not necessary to a marriage. But the ceremony is.

For the purpose of this analogy, perhaps we should ignore whether the marriage is a covenant before God, or just a civil marriage (or a marriage under a different religous group).

A Justice of the Peace wedding does have a ceremony, therefore, the couple are still married. Non-Christians are legally married if they fulfill the ceremony required by their religion, just as other people who marry before a judge. In the eyes of the Law, they are married. And since they desire to be married, God likely recognises that as well.

But in all cases, the couple do go through a ceremony. If they do not go through a ceremony with witnesses, then they are NOT married.

So too is it with Baptism. If we want enter into the New Covenant with Christ and IN Christ, we must be baptized. If we are not baptized, when we have not committed to Christ, we have only paid lipservice.

If a man and woman move in together, declaring their love for each other, but have not entered into a formal arrangement by having a ceremony with witnesses, then they are not married. There is no covenant. No commitment by either party.

If you do this with Christ, He has no arrangement with you or you with Him. No promises were made, so none to be kept by either party.

That is not a position I would want to be in. And if my boyfriend had thought so little of me as to suggest that we live common-law (live together without benefit of marriage), I would have dumped him and moved on to someone who was ready to make a formal commitment. Fortunately, my boyfriend truly did love me and was not just paying lipservice. We have been married for 17 years and do not see an end until one of us dies, hopefully a long time in the future.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Water baptism is not equivalent to a ring. The baptismal ceremony which includes water, is equivalent to a marriage ceremony for the purpose of this analogy.

My children each received a baptismal candle and a white garment as a symbol of their baptism. These are equivalent to my wedding ring. They do not need the candle and white garment to be baptized, it is just a symbol. Just as I do not need a ring to be married. But I still need to have a wedding ceremony to be married.

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