water baptism or just belief?
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First Member
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Does water baptism saves?Does believing and faith alone saved?
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
is your marriage just a dead symbol and really you and your wife are not one flesh? sacraments only mean that spiritual things are real and not just a matter of assent. if you can find a way to see marriage as sacramental,, ie the two become one flesh, and that even though it's a ceremony ritual, and the two people appear to physically be separate, you believe some spiritual grace from god actually makes them one, then you should have no idea with understanding the real sacramental and wholeheartedly christian belief about baptism and the lords supper, about anointing with oil, and confession. unfortunately modern groups who use the name christian to mean "their personal take on what the bible really says" and who are legion, have gone off the deep end in trying to assert their own authority by attacking the ancient church and to do so they have even attacked the very words and commands of jesus.
mike
Yes that sacrament is like the key of belief, and that make us saved born again or like you see it married.
The saved part is trusting on Christ,with faith which is also spiritual and done on the inside!
We do marry Jesus when we get saved born again spiritually, it is completed to be called a son or daughter of God!
The witness of your marriage to God is done on the outside like reading your bible , going to church getting water baptized, praying and doing good charity work , offerings tithes and etc.
The same is with the wearing of your ring is your outside evidence you are married to others .
Your fuits of being married is the love to your partner in gooding good works, help, advice,giving gifts,going out to dinner , giving flowers or even money and etc.
When you can see that the wedding ring is not required , then you can see that water baptism is also not required, but it is a good thing every christian should do , just like it is a good example for every married person to wear thier wedding ring!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Being symbolic does take away what it represents or what it does.
When we are baptized, we receive the Holy Spirit. The water is a symbol, but we are still receive the reality of what it represents.
If one chooses to not get baptized, they do not get the Holy Spirit or the reality of what Baptism represents.
Even with Cornelius and his household the fact that they received the Holy Ghost in advance proved that they were worthy of Baptism. Baptism is not something to be taken lightly.
You make it into some legalistic thing that we should do at somepoint but otherwise is not necessary to our salvation.
Baptism is not a legal action, but our free and virtually unconditional entrance into Christ's covenant. I say virtually because belief is also required for salvation.
Baptism is an extraordinary gift from God and you treat it like some duty that you have to perform because God said so, at some point for no other purpose than to identify yourself as a Christian.
Faith_at_Large do you have a relationship and do the does for your kids and husband becuase of legalism and a duty??
If you say no , then the same is what we do for Christ, and the key is LOve Faith_at_Large!
I know you read 1 Cor 13!
1Co:13:1: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co:13:2: And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co:13:3: And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co:13:4: Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co:13:5: Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co:13:6: Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co:13:7: Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co:13:8: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Charity is not a law, or legalism FAL, it is love from the heart, not from religion !
This should be our motive also in doing a baptism but not a requirement but is a evidence of what is in your heart!
God what us more than our service!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Evangelist. Why do you equate joining with Christ as some legal duty?
I love my husband and my children and it is because I love my husband and wanted a family with him that we got married.
Many people shack up and do for each other, but that is not marriage. That is not true love. Such persons are withholding themselves from each other.
True love commits. Marriage is a commitment, and so is baptism.
No ceremony means that one is not ready to commit. No commitment, no covenant. No Covenant, no salvation.
Baptism joins us with Christ. Through baptism, not belief, we enter into Christ.
How can anyone think that they love Jesus is they are not eager to enter into Him. What kind of relationship is that, if they desire to hold back themselves from making that permanent commitment?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist. Why do you equate joining with Christ as some legal duty?
I love my husband and my children and it is because I love my husband and wanted a family with him that we got married.
Many people shack up and do for each other, but that is not marriage. That is not true love. Such persons are withholding themselves from each other.
True love commits. Marriage is a commitment, and so is baptism.
No ceremony means that one is not ready to commit. No commitment, no covenant. No Covenant, no salvation.
Baptism joins us with Christ. Through baptism, not belief, we enter into Christ.
How can anyone think that they love Jesus is they are not eager to enter into Him. What kind of relationship is that, if they desire to hold back themselves from making that permanent commitment?
True marriage with Jesus is trusting Him and believing in Him as your Lord!
Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro:10:5: For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Ro:10:6: But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Ro:10:7: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Ro:10:8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Yes. We no longer need to slaughter pigeons after childbirth. We no longer have to gather once a year in Jerusalem for Passover. We no longer have to slaughter the firstlings of our herds or offer up the first fruits of our fields.
There are so many things that we do not have to do anymore because of what Christ set in motion. But what does that have to do with this conversation?
If we want to accept Christ's offer of the New Covenant, we must be baptized into it - that is how it is done.
Jesus never said that we could pay lipservice. Many of His parables are all about preparation. The Scriptures frequently raise the metaphor of the Wedding Feast - this is not an informal "I heart U" let's shack-up, but a formal arrangement.
If Jesus wanted a whore for a quicky, He would not have died for us. He wants a Permanent Covenant. And this covenant is available to everyone who believes. We all have a wonderful opportunity to enter into Christ's New Covenant. Only a fool would want to be standing outside the wall when the door is shut to the Wedding Feast.
Any one who truly loves, will make a commitment. Only those who are not sure will opt for a temporary arrangement such as what you suggest.
I know that you will claim that it is permanent, but the thing is if one does not make a commitment, there is no commitment. Baptism is the evidence of our commitment, and God seals us in return.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Yes. We no longer need to slaughter pigeons after childbirth. We no longer have to gather once a year in Jerusalem for Passover. We no longer have to slaughter the firstlings of our herds or offer up the first fruits of our fields.
There are so many things that we do not have to do anymore because of what Christ set in motion. But what does that have to do with this conversation?
If we want to accept Christ's offer of the New Covenant, we must be baptized into it - that is how it is done.
Jesus never said that we could pay lipservice. Many of His parables are all about preparation. The Scriptures frequently raise the metaphor of the Wedding Feast - this is not an informal "I heart U" let's shack-up, but a formal arrangement.
If Jesus wanted a whore for a quicky, He would not have died for us. He wants a Permanent Covenant. And this covenant is available to everyone who believes. We all have a wonderful opportunity to enter into Christ's New Covenant. Only a fool would want to be standing outside the wall when the door is shut to the Wedding Feast.
Any one who truly loves, will make a commitment. Only those who are not sure will opt for a temporary arrangement such as what you suggest.
I know that you will claim that it is permanent, but the thing is if one does not make a commitment, there is no commitment. Baptism is the evidence of our commitment, and God seals us in return.
Paul didn't teach the good new of a lip service , it is a heart service FAL, read Rom 10 again!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Amen. And yet you insist on offering only lipservice.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 09/02/2009 17:00:50
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Amen. And yet you insist on offering only lipservice.
It is not me who is teaching a lip service!
I believe the bible and also what Paul teaches, in Rom 10.
It is a heart and your mouth and then you are saved, redeemed, sanctified, have eternal redemption, Holy, and have salvation!
one love FAL
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
If your heart and your mouth truthfully profess Christ, you will follow after Him in all that He taught.
Those that do not do this, are only paying lipservice.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
If your heart and your mouth truthfully profess Christ, you will follow after Him in all that He taught.
Those that do not do this, are only paying lipservice.
Amen to that and one most important part you leave out is we follow because what we have , like being saved , redeemed, holy, righteous, justified, sanctified, pure before God.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Amen, I don't participate in the sacraments because I have to. I accept these wonderful gifts from Jesus as often as I can because He is so generous.
While avoiding sin is necessary, I avoid sin because I love God and do not desire to do anything that would offend Him.
I obey Christ because He made it possible. To do any less makes a mockery of my claim to believe.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
If you don't obey Christ, you do not have the law written on your heart and the Holy Spirit is not within you.
Those who sow to the spirit will reap eternal life, those who sow to the flesh will reap condemnation. Those who obey Christ sow to the Spirit. Those who disobey Christ sow to the flesh and reap condemnation. Very simple Gospel and so plainly and repeatedly are these things stressed.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Amen to that.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Amen, I don't participate in the sacraments because I have to. I accept these wonderful gifts from Jesus as often as I can because He is so generous.
While avoiding sin is necessary, I avoid sin because I love God and do not desire to do anything that would offend Him.
I obey Christ because He made it possible. To do any less makes a mockery of my claim to believe.
God is spirit, and He is well pleased with your perfect spirit!
To make a mockery is to reject Jesus as your Lord!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Jesus gave me the sacraments. To reject them outright is to insult the giver and make a mockery of His teachings.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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