Where is the true church?
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I have been told the Catholic church was the true church, i have been told the Baptist church was the true church, and so on, and so on, will the ral church please stand up! Give me the reason why please. Thank you very much. lacy-1
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we are gods gift to each other husbands and wives. vilifying the opposite sex either way is a slap in gods face.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH
If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.
The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.
His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).
Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.
The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).
But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).
The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20).
For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).
Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).
The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.
The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).
These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.
Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.
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hi lacy.
i would say first that the idea of a catholic church is not a matter of denominational dispute... ie catholics vs baptists vs non denominational etc... the idea of a catholic church is that the church is one. before the reformation there were not denominations though there were disputes. what you find in the ancient church is catholicism. the orthodox churches are very similar to the catholic church, liturgical, sacramental, the church with authority to teach and though we have some disagreements it should be very clear what ancient christianity really looked like by examining these groups who were actually there. now in the earlies times there were other groups of christians that died out over time... like ebionites or gnostics. gnostics have seen revivals over the years, but for the most part there is no consistency or just too much time between such revivals to give them any credence... not to mention gnosticism predated christianity and merely adopted it's terminology and mythology... some modern sects like baptists and pentacostals will sometimes try to trace a lineage through some groups of people that were considered heretics... and investigation of those groups often shows that they would even be considered heretical by those claiming descent. that was my issue when i was a non catholic. as i investigated some of the groups that were used to tie in the modern church with the church of acts, i found that the beliefs they held were often way off anything that would be accepted by the sects i was a part of... what's more the ideas that helped to determine the cults from the christians all came from the catholic/orthodox church. the trinity, the bible, the christology....
anyway there a few things for you to think about.....
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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HI Michael,
What is ment by 4 chief marks? Also if you have 7 children each has a differnt name but they are all of you are they not?(in reguards of all the churches)
His bride is not a building or an organization, it's the body, whole 4 corners of teh earth body. In every house that the Spirit chooses who believes in Jesus and the Spirit can even use non belivers to.
You say you only have one doctrine but what about Vatican 1 and vatican 2? why are they apart? why the division? As i see it the Pope can rule even over the bible if he chooses to right? Also Jesus said to confess your sins one to another didn't he? lacy-1
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well, i definitely dont believe that many of the major doctrines of roman catholicism line up with the Bible, once again i have trusted the Lord personally and I believe definitely that there is only one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus..I would no more pray to Mary or any saint than I would to my dead mother, that is totally alien to the word of God...no pergatory to pay for sins...thats blasphemy to what God did through Christ on the cross....one of the things that Christ warned about was groups or individuals coming and saying that we are the way, truth and life....saying that we are the only way and every thing else is error if you are not connected to us....thats got the smell of cult all over it....ONLY THRU US!!...when Nicodemus came to Jesus in John 3, he came as a representative of the Pharisees saying...We know that you are a teacher come from God for no man could do the miracles you do without God being with him...the Jews were totally obsessed with the kingdom coming, because they were just a shadow of their former selves and they hated Rome..so before Nicodemus could ask Jesus a question about the kingdom, Jesus told him that unless a man was born again, he would not be able to see (understand, belong to, operate in) the kingdom...simply put, the kingdom was going to be offered to people individually and as we know, the visible and powerful kingdom that is coming in the future was delayed by the rejection of the Son of God, but as stated in Isaiah and many other places, this did not take God by surprise...the kingdom that God now offers doesnt require your church or mine!!!...people can access a living God and enter into the kingdom of God without any church belief or affiliation..just by hearing the Good news and responding to it sincerely..Jesus is the one that said Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man will hear my voice and open the door, I will come into him and dine with him, and he with me....wow...thats so simple that you need someone to help you misunderstand it!!!.I of course do believe that we should belong to and attend church, but not one that teaches US US US and only us...once again...thats the CULT ALERT!....i understand and respect the strong feelings and beliefs that many have about their churches, but i believe that we can be very sincere and be sincerely wrong...as i said in an earlier post that we better let God be true and every man a liar..I wouldnt want to stand before the Lord and him say "you trusted a church as your saviour and not my Son"...as i stated earlier, accept no substitute, the Lord saves us individually or we are not saved!!
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To MikeJuli,
I herd that the Catholic church and the Orthodox were together one time at first, and they broke apart, before the feformation is that true? could that have started the reformation? Also I don't put to much stark in geneology in the bible we are told not to barther with this. Of course they had the trinity before the church was ever herd of, because they all belived in God and when Jesus came they believe in him so they had 2 of the trinity then Jesus said "After i am gone i will sene the comforter for you" So they then had a belief in the 3 devine in one Trinity before Jesus ever died right? The trinity goes way back before the church, or Peters church was formed, right? lacy-1
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quote:
Originally posted by thunderson
well, i definitely dont believe that many of the major doctrines of roman catholicism line up with the Bible, once again i have trusted the Lord personally and I believe definitely that there is only one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus..I would no more pray to Mary or any saint than I would to my dead mother, that is totally alien to the word of God...no pergatory to pay for sins...thats blasphemy to what God did through Christ on the cross....one of the things that Christ warned about was groups or individuals coming and saying that we are the way, truth and life....saying that we are the only way and every thing else is error if you are not connected to us....thats got the smell of cult all over it....ONLY THRU US!!...when Nicodemus came to Jesus in John 3, he came as a representative of the Pharisees saying...We know that you are a teacher come from God for no man could do the miracles you do without God being with him...the Jews were totally obsessed with the kingdom coming, because they were just a shadow of their former selves and they hated Rome..so before Nicodemus could ask Jesus a question about the kingdom, Jesus told him that unless a man was born again, he would not be able to see (understand, belong to, operate in) the kingdom...simply put, the kingdom was going to be offered to people individually and as we know, the visible and powerful kingdom that is coming in the future was delayed by the rejection of the Son of God, but as stated in Isaiah and many other places, this did not take God by surprise...the kingdom that God now offers doesnt require your church or mine!!!...people can access a living God and enter into the kingdom of God without any church belief or affiliation..just by hearing the Good news and responding to it sincerely..Jesus is the one that said Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man will hear my voice and open the door, I will come into him and dine with him, and he with me....wow...thats so simple that you need someone to help you misunderstand it!!!.I of course do believe that we should belong to and attend church, but not one that teaches US US US and only us...once again...thats the CULT ALERT!....i understand and respect the strong feelings and beliefs that many have about their churches, but i believe that we can be very sincere and be sincerely wrong...as i said in an earlier post that we better let God be true and every man a liar..I wouldnt want to stand before the Lord and him say "you trusted a church as your saviour and not my Son"...as i stated earlier, accept no substitute, the Lord saves us individually or we are not saved!!
I agree so far, sounds fair to me lacy-1
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Lacy-1, Do you honestly believe that Christ intended to start a movement that would evolve into a variety of different, contradictory belief systems? Or that this is in any way helpful to Christianity and its spread throughout the world?
Mark 9:38-40 "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part."
People often use the passage above as evidence that it is OK with Jesus that we have different denominations and that the Catholic Church was wrong to stamp out heretics.
But that was then, and His plan for the future is more closely reflected in the following:
John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd."
And in Christ's prayer for us:
John 27:20-21 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
Thunderson, perhaps named for the Sons of Thunder (two of the Apostles), feels that the Catholic Church does not have its doctrines from the Bible, but most Protestants are not really qualified to make that determination. One must study what the Cathoic Church actually teaches from Catholic sources first and not rely on the opinions of others who have heard things third=hand.
Ephesians 4:3-6 "Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all."
To suggest that the Reformation produced a true Church from the ashes of the old is not realistic since no two Reformers agreed with each other, and none remained true to their origins afterward.
Some later non-Catholics Christians denounce the Reformers and feel that they have only now discovered true Christianity. But have they really? How many match even a little to the early Church described in Acts, or by the ealy Church Fathers.
And since many of them flat out contradict each other, how is one to recognize the True Church of Christ if one must choose from one of these? All claim to be led by the Bible and the Holy Ghost.
The many denominations are proof that the Bible has no guarantees of being interpreted correctly. The cult translations are evidence that the Bible is not even guaranteed to be translated or copied correctly.
It is only with the Church that the Bible is reliable. Jesus promised that.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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quote:
Originally posted by lacy-1
HI Michael,
What is ment by 4 chief marks? Also if you have 7 children each has a differnt name but they are all of you are they not?(in reguards of all the churches)
His bride is not a building or an organization, it's the body, whole 4 corners of teh earth body. In every house that the Spirit chooses who believes in Jesus and the Spirit can even use non belivers to.
You say you only have one doctrine but what about Vatican 1 and vatican 2? why are they apart? why the division? As i see it the Pope can rule even over the bible if he chooses to right? Also Jesus said to confess your sins one to another didn't he? lacy-1
the four marks are
1) one
2) holy
3) catholic
4) apostolic
In reguards to the 7 children analogy
Protestants denominated themselves from the Catholic Church & named themselves. Simon was named or nominated by Jesus. Jesus named him Peter or Rock. If the Catholic never existed Protestan would not exist because they would have nothing to denominate themselves from or protest. Protestant denominations can not save themselves through their own works of creating their own beliefs.
Some times they name councils by number. Here is a list of councils you will see named some by number. link
Edited by michael on 10/11/2009 20:42:33
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I am so cunfused that al i want to do is stay home and just read the bible and not be bothered with any churches. The Catholic church is in the worls to much and their peole are boastful and have to much pride. They cannot or most never get married ever again after divorce or annulment. The strike me as being afraid of everything and cannot make any decisions without the Papacy redirecting them and telling them they should be aa holy as thou and become a nun or a priest ETC it seems they don't realy know how to love , realy love. i ahve not realy found one Catholic man who can realy love anything but young children and they all want purity and virgins and younger girls, Chasity, Chasity, Chasity, At least Jesus loved the prostitute and forgave her, he knew for every fallen woman there are 100 fallen men! They belive in procreation and after a woman cannot procreate any more, it's on to higher grounds(younger woman) How do you think a woman feel's about herself with having to live till death due you part with men that think like this? What an awfull life for your woman.I have herd it and seen it, so i know, but you don't speak all the truth. I find Catholics very hard and unforgiving. My opinion. lacy-1
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quote:
Originally posted by michael
quote:
Originally posted by lacy-1
HI Michael,
What is ment by 4 chief marks? Also if you have 7 children each has a differnt name but they are all of you are they not?(in reguards of all the churches)
His bride is not a building or an organization, it's the body, whole 4 corners of teh earth body. In every house that the Spirit chooses who believes in Jesus and the Spirit can even use non belivers to.
You say you only have one doctrine but what about Vatican 1 and vatican 2? why are they apart? why the division? As i see it the Pope can rule even over the bible if he chooses to right? Also Jesus said to confess your sins one to another didn't he? lacy-1
the four marks are
1) one
2) holy
3) catholic
4) apostolic
In reguards to the 7 children analogy
Protestants denominated themselves from the Catholic Church & named themselves. Simon was named or nominated by Jesus. Jesus named him Peter or Rock. If the Catholic never existed Protestan would not exist because they would have nothing to denominate themselves from or protest. Protestant denominations can not save themselves through their own works of creating their own beliefs.
Some times they name councils by number. Here is a list of councils you will see named some by number. link
If this was true Jesus would have stressed it himself If jesus said it I believe it! lacy-1
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lacy-1... Your experience w/ Catholics is very different from my own.
"There are water and tears; the water of baptism and the tears of repentance." -St. Ambrose“
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quote:
Originally posted by michael
[quote]Originally posted by lacy-1
HI Michael,
What is ment by 4 chief marks? Also if you have 7 children each has a differnt name but they are all of you are they not?(in reguards of all the churches)
His bride is not a building or an organization, it's the body, whole 4 corners of teh earth body. In every house that the Spirit chooses who believes in Jesus and the Spirit can even use non belivers to.
You say you only have one doctrine but what about Vatican 1 and vatican 2? why are they apart? why the division? As i see it the Pope can rule even over the bible if he chooses to right? Also Jesus said to confess your sins one to another didn't he? lacy-1
the four marks are
1) one
2) holy
3) catholic
4) apostolic
In reguards to the 7 children analogy
Protestants denominated themselves from the Catholic Church & named themselves. Simon was named or nominated by Jesus. Jesus named him Peter or Rock. If the Catholic never existed Protestan would not exist because they would have nothing to denominate themselves from or protest. Protestant denominations can not save themselves through their own works of creating their own beliefs.
Some times they name councils by number. Here is a list of councils you will see named some by number. link
[/quote
HI Michael, first of all and foremost, Pope gregory was the N-- that started priests "should not get married, up" till then thy were allowed to get married and i think it is a shame for them to burn with desire so much that they pick on children and so do alot of Catholic men that end up seperated or in the priesthood because they are not scanning them good enough. They let in all kinds of men and don't do a proper background check, like they should because they need priests so bad. God made man and then made him a compliment(guess what?) a woman, Yes! i am a firm beliver man and woman should be togethr. Paul was an excepton alot of decipals were married and alot of woman went to the stake or were burned to death because they would not donounce their religion. You only put the saints that the Pope cannonized to pray to but not the other poor ones who who were torchered and died for Jesus.After the children are grown it seems that Catholics seperate nd live alone, you give marriage a bad name. you should be able to get married again and not have to feel like a sinner who needs to do a vocation. Please I do know some things.lacy-1
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For starters, pedophiles are sick people regardless of whether they are priests or married men with children.
There are Protestan ministers, Rabbis and Muslim clerics who are also pedophiles. But Catholic priests make the news because the Catholic Church is bigger.
They did do background checks but were wrong in assuming that the vow of chastity could be kept by people with disordered inclinations. They assumed that the threat of Hell would be sufficient, but it was an honest mistake then. Today, these things are happening in schools, sports clubs and other organizations that should have learned from the Catholic experience but still choose secrecy over dealing with the facts.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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[quote]Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
For starters, pedophiles are sick people regardless of whether they are priests or married men with children.
There are Protestan ministers, Rabbis and Muslim clerics who are also pedophiles. But Catholic priests make the news because the Catholic Church is bigger.
They did do background checks but were wrong in assuming that the vow of chastity could be kept by people with disordered inclinations. They assumed that the threat of Hell would be sufficient, but it was an honest mistake then. Today, these things are happening in schools, sports clubs and other organizations that should have learned from the Catholic experience but still choose secrecy over dealing with the facts.
[/quote
You are right about alot of that but one thing, they did not go back far enough And the church is where these bad people are entering in to that are not married any more and why did there wives annul or divorce them? All this should be checked into. Yes they do background checks and along with all this they should do alot of Psyco analizing of these people. Do you know that if a pedaphile does not get cought doing this in so many years hi is off the list of dangered species? The jails cannot hold them any more there ar so many. It is one of the biggest businnes and there is no help for this disease. They are allowed to teach in churches and be around children, and no one knows they were in trouble for this ans they could be even baby sitting their friends helpless kids. In stead of letting them out of jail as they do, they should build more prisons or put them out of their mysery, before they harm another child. It happens alot on the internet also, nad now i herd children are doing this to each other in their own family's. God Help us all! lacy-1
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