Where is the true church?
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I have been told the Catholic church was the true church, i have been told the Baptist church was the true church, and so on, and so on, will the ral church please stand up! Give me the reason why please. Thank you very much. lacy-1
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Originally posted by mikejuli
it's funny how strongly the modern feminist movement has influenced the modern woman.. to be sure they did need to get in a better place than they were, but it seems that it wasn't good enough, now they need to vilify and accuse all men.
 HI Michael, I love you! Men are God's gift to woman! lacy-1
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Originally posted by lacy-1
I think Catholic woman are alot like Mormon woman, they stay home and have kids and work after they are grown etc. I know alot of woman work now to but they are alot alike in this respect. I know a catholic actually alot of catholic's that have 10-18 kids, and they suffer poverty because they love their husbands and each other and they have to do everything natural. I am still having problems with that. My poor grand mother had 13 kids and she died having a historectomy at age 50 because her uterous was bad but she had a bad reaction to the anestesia and died. She only came here to have kids and left. Not a very good life. lacy-1
That depends on how you look at it. My grandmother had 13 children also, and I stopped counting grandchildren at 22 when she died in her 80's. All of her children were very successful, and most lived good Catholic lives, one even became a nun.
My grandmother had a lot to teach us, and she could not have done that if she had not chosen motherhood as a vocation.
My aunts and uncles had smaller families, but from what I understand this was not a choice. Medical issues prevented my extended family from being even larger than it was. My own mother had five children but was never able to have more - she miscarried a sixth, but that was the end of it.
I have four children, and had two miscarriages. I wish that I could have had more. Given that it is still possible, I may yet have another, but given my age and some prior complications, it is not something we are working towards.
Children are a blessing, and speaking as a mother of four, I am blessed for the opportunity to bring even what I have into world. It is an extraordinary life, with a legacy that will live on after us. We cooperate with our husbands to bring forth future generations of Christians.
My mother always said that "The hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world". This saying has been around for a while but it is so true.
What hands are rocking the cradles of the next generation? Many children today are shipped off to daycare by six months of age. Many children even of this current generation spent more waking time in the company of paid strangers than with their own parents.
And what about our future generation? I am glad that there are still Catholic parents having 8 to 18 children, because many are not. Our generation in first world countries is not replacing itself.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Originally posted by mikejuli
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But the way other see it is like your hand you give to some óne else they say it is your feet, or that good person you describe is a good dog or monkey, which none of their description is correct.
God is love and He is a Spirit , also He is Jesus in flesh which Islam deny even to the worst as saying God doesn't even have a Son.
The bible say who doesn't have the Son of God doesn't have the Father God period no matter how you translate His name.
yes i understand that, and so does the catechism... but you don't seem to think we do even after we say so and show you that the catechism says so... but rather than try to alienate those that believe differently we are trying to see where we agree.
quote:
1Jo:2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo:2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
So if they don't have the Son of God what God do they have?
Even the bible teaches that they are anti Christ and don't have the God of the bible.
If your RCC goes against the bible then you might can say they are right which would make your church Anti Christ!
except that that verse isn't directed at muslims evan.. it's directed at christians, specifically the rise the the gnostic sects that didn't believe that christ came in the flesh. the problem is only one of your creation. so like i said you need to step back and take the time to really understand what you are reading before you fly off the handle... btw did you read the homework for evan thread yet?
Islam claim to be believers also , maybe not infidels like christian but believer in God the father of the bible.
But the scripture I quoted is a priciple biblical fact from John.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Muslim are not allowed to be such scholars in their own islamic belief , even about the history of mohammed, and their koran or al-lat moon god which muhammed parent also worshiped and even muhammed followed untill he thought of a new way to get Jews and christians to join Islam and muslims and his arabic party and gangs or tribe.
Mormons believ their jesus is satan brother is this the same Jesus Christian worship or the catholic worship???
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Originally posted by mikejuli
we are gods gift to each other husbands and wives. vilifying the opposite sex either way is a slap in gods face.
Don't feel bad Michael , woman have been slapped in the face through out time. lacy-1
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Mormons are a whole other kettle of fish. But they have nothing to do with Catholicism - just ask them.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Mormons are a whole other kettle of fish. But they have nothing to do with Catholicism - just ask them.
But mormons have another Jesus , and not the Christian Jesus of your church and the bible!
The same is with muslim who have another god and not the God Jehovah of the bible!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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To many leftists here for me.I know some Mormons and they believe in Jesus , but their trinity is not the same as Catholics,, or others. They see 3 persons ans seperate ones, and when you die you keep having children. no thank you. lacy-1
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Originally posted by lacy-1
To many leftists here for me.I know some Mormons and they believe in Jesus , but their trinity is not the same as Catholics,, or others. They see 3 persons ans seperate ones, and when you die you keep having children. no thank you. lacy-1
... reminds me of when the Sadducees mocked the resurrection...
Mark 12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
The same applies to Muslims, with their belief that they will have access to countless virgins in heaven. It's funny how some believe we will still have to feed the carnal mind's lusts after death.
"There are water and tears; the water of baptism and the tears of repentance." -St. Ambrose“
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quote:
Originally posted by lacy-1
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
we are gods gift to each other husbands and wives. vilifying the opposite sex either way is a slap in gods face.
Don't feel bad Michael , woman have been slapped in the face through out time. lacy-1
could you prove that? i mean i know there is a stereotype that was created in old movie and moreso by historians painting cavement catching wives with a club to the head.. but i've never done either and honestly i don't know many guys who do. as a matter of fact i know just as many abusive men as i do abusive women... not to mention i can say flat out that in school the girl fights were always the absolute worst, women may have been slapped in face thoughout time but i'll bet that just as many women did the slapping as men.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
Originally posted by lacy-1
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
we are gods gift to each other husbands and wives. vilifying the opposite sex either way is a slap in gods face.
Don't feel bad Michael , woman have been slapped in the face through out time. lacy-1
could you prove that? i mean i know there is a stereotype that was created in old movie and moreso by historians painting cavement catching wives with a club to the head.. but i've never done either and honestly i don't know many guys who do. as a matter of fact i know just as many abusive men as i do abusive women... not to mention i can say flat out that in school the girl fights were always the absolute worst, women may have been slapped in face thoughout time but i'll bet that just as many women did the slapping as men.
being slaped in the fact is not as bad as when the church stone Pope Joan to death and burn all evidence about her being a female pope.
I wonder how Peter would feel about that?
I heard the truth about this not happening again is that they let a pope sit in a chair with a hole in it to show the pope is not a female again.
What do RCC think about that??
The sedes stercoraria (defecation seats), the thrones with holes in it at St. John Lateran did indeed exist, and were used in the elevation of Pope Pascal II in 1099 (Boureau 1988). In fact, one is still in the Vatican Museums, another at the Musée du Louvre. They do indeed have a hole in the seat. The reason for the hole is disputed, but as both the seats and their holes predated the Pope Joan story, they clearly have nothing to do with a need to check the sex of a Pope. It has been speculated that they originally were Roman bidets or imperial birthing stools, which because of their age and imperial links were used in ceremonies by Popes intent on highlighting their own imperial claims (as they did also with their Latin title, Pontifex Maximus).[2]
my source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan
They are now showing this all over german tv here in Germny and many are shocked about the truth church catholic!
oner love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 11/09/2009 11:30:49
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ROTFL, seriously, you cannot possibly believe that the Church would elect a female pope, then stone her and be able to cover that up?
If it was covered up, how did conspiracy nuts manage to find anything?
And how does one give birth while mounting a horse? Only a boy who has never had any experience with childbirth could possibly come up with such a ridiculous scenario.
There was no record of any Pope Joan until someone invented her in recent times. It is lunacy to even take those imaginary legends seriously - I have to call them imaginary as true legends have been around for longer than the internet.
Even in the article you linked to there is a descrepancy in when she may have existed - a few centuries apart.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 11/09/2009 12:11:46
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And notes written in the margins of any document after they were originally published does not constitute proof of anything. In some case, it might be construed as a lack of respect for the document or the author - a practical joke.
None of the original manuscripts alluded to contain any reference to Pope Joan.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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John Anglicus, born at Mainz, was Pope for two years, seven months and four days, and died in Rome, after which there was a vacancy in the Papacy of one month. It is claimed that this John was a woman, who as a girl had been led to Athens dressed in the clothes of a man by a certain lover of hers. There she became proficient in a diversity of branches of knowledge, until she had no equal, and afterwards in Rome, she taught the liberal arts and had great masters among her students and audience. A high opinion of her life and learning arose in the city, and she was chosen for Pope. While Pope, however, she became pregnant by her companion. Through ignorance of the exact time when the birth was expected, she was delivered of a child while in procession from St Peter's to the Lateran, in a lane once named Via Sacra (the sacred way) but now known as the "shunned street" between the Colisseum and St Clement's church. After her death, it is said she was buried in that same place. The Lord Pope always turns aside from the street and it is believed by many that this is done because of abhorrence of the event. Nor is she placed on the list of the Holy Pontiffs, both because of her female sex and on account of the foulness of the matter (Martin of Opava, Chronicon Pontificum et Imperatorum).
An untitled Popess on the "Rosenwald Sheet" of uncut Tarot woodcut designs, late 15th-early 16th century (National Gallery, Washington)This event is said to have taken place between the reigns of Leo IV and Benedict III in the 850s. Versions of the story appear in sources earlier than Martin; the one most commonly cited is Anastasius Bibliothecarius (d. 886), a compiler of Liber Pontificalis, who would have been a contemporary of the female Pope. However, the story is not found in reliable manuscripts of Anastasius. In fact, only one manuscript of Anastasius' Liber Pontificalis contains a reference to the female Pope. This manuscript, in the Vatican Library, bears the relevant passage inserted as a footnote at the bottom of a page, out of sequence, and in a different hand, one that certainly dates from after the time of Martin von Troppau. This "witness" to the female Pope is likely to be based upon Martin's account, and certainly not a possible source for it. The same is true of Marianus Scotus's Chronicle of the Popes, a text written in the 11th Century. Some manuscripts of it contain a brief mention of a female Pope named Joanna (the earliest source to identify her with a specific name), but all these manuscripts are, again, later than Martin's work. Earlier manuscripts do not contain the legend.
There is only one source for a female Pope which certainly antedates Martin of Opava, and this is Jean de Mailly, who wrote slightly earlier in the 13th Century. In his chronicle of Metz, Chronica Universalis Mettensis, he dates the scandal not to the 850s but to 1099, and writes:
"Query. Concerning a certain Pope or rather female Pope, who is not set down in the list of Popes or Bishops of Rome, because she was a woman who disguised herself as a man and became, by her character and talents, a curial secretary, then a Cardinal and finally Pope. One day, while mounting a horse, she gave birth to a child. Immediately, by Roman justice, she was bound by the feet to a horse's tail and dragged and stoned by the people for half a league, and where she died, there she was buried, and at the place is written: 'Petre, Pater Patrum, Papisse Prodito Partum' [Oh Peter, Father of Fathers, Betray the childbearing of the woman Pope]. At the same time, the four-day fast called the "fast of the female Pope" was first established" (Jean de Mailly, Chronica Universalis Mettensis).
From the mid-13th Century onwards, then, the legend was widely disseminated and believed. Joan was used as an exemplum in Dominican preaching. Bartolomeo Platina, the scholar who was prefect of the Vatican Library, wrote his Vitæ Pontificum Platinæ Historici Liber de Vita Christi ac Omnium Pontificum Qui Hactenus Ducenti Fuere et XX in 1479 at the behest of his patron, Pope Sixtus IV. The book contains the following account of the female Pope:
"Pope John VIII: John, of English extraction, was born at Mentz (Mainz) and is said to have arrived at Popedom by evil art; for disguising herself like a man, whereas she was a woman, she went when young with her paramour, Frumentius, a learned man, to Athens, and made such progress in learning under the professors there that, coming to Rome, she met with few that could equal, much less go beyond her, even in the knowledge of the scriptures; and by her learned and ingenious readings and disputations, she acquired so great respect and authority that upon the death of Pope Leo IV (as Martin says) by common consent she was chosen Pope in his room. As she was going to the Lateran Church between the Colossean Theatre (so called from Nero's Colossus) and St. Clement's her travail came upon her, and she died upon the place, having sat two years, one month, and four days, and was buried there without any pomp. This story is vulgarly told, but by very uncertain and obscure authors, and therefore I have related it barely and in short, lest I should seem obstinate and pertinacious if I had admitted what is so generally talked. I had better mistake with the rest of the world, though it be certain, that what I have related may be thought not altogether incredible" (Bartolomeo Platina, Vitæ Pontificum Platinæ historici liber de vita Christi ac omnium pontificum qui hactenus ducenti fuere et XX).
References to the female Pope abound in the later Middle Ages and Renaissance. Giovanni Boccaccio wrote about her in De Mulieribus Claris (1353).[1] The Chronicon of Adam of Usk (1404) gives her a name, Agnes, and furthermore mentions a statue in Rome which is said to be of her. This statue had never been mentioned by any earlier writer anywhere; presumably it was an actual statue that came to be taken to be of the female Pope. A late 14th Century edition of the Mirabilia Urbis Romae, a guidebook for pilgrims to Rome, tells readers that the female Pope's remains are buried at St. Peter's. It was around this time when a long series of busts of past Popes was made for the Duomo of Siena, which included one of the female Pope, named as "Johannes VIII, Foemina de Anglia" and included between Leo IV and Benedict III. At his trial in 1415, Jan Hus argued that the Church does not necessarily need a Pope, because during the Pontificate of "Pope Agnes" (as he also called her), it got on quite well. Hus's opponents at this trial insisted that his argument proved no such thing about the independence of the Church, but they did not dispute that there had been a female Pope at all.
The Tarot, which surfaced in the mid-15th Century, includes a Papesse with its Pape (since the late 19th Century called The High Priestess and the Hierophant in English). It is often suggested, with some plausibility although no real proof, that this image was inspired by the legend of the female Pope.
There were associated legends as well. In the 1290s the Dominican Robert of Uzès recounted a vision in which he saw the seat "where, it is said, the Pope is proved to be a man." By the 14th Century, it was believed that two ancient marble seats, called the sedia stercoraria, which were used for enthroning new Popes in the Basilica of St. John Lateran, had holes in the seats that were used for determining the gender of the new Pope. It was said that the Pope would have to sit on one of the seats naked, while a committee of Cardinals peered through the hole from beneath. Not until the late 15th Century, however, was it said that this peculiar practice was instituted in response to the scandal of the 9th Century female Pope.
One legend says that Joan was the illegitimate daughter of a former Pope and had a vision from God that she should succeed her father and become Pope. Another legend says that a street in Italy is named after her and her body is buried beneath it. In some legends, Pope Joan is not murdered after being revealed as a woman. Instead she is deposed, lives the rest of her life in a convent and her son is made Bishop of Hostia. Here is a passage from a Berlin manuscript:
“She was deposed for her incontinence, and taking up the religious habit, lived in penitence for such a long time that she saw her son made Bishop of Hostia [ Ostia, near Rome]. When, in her final days, she perceived her death approaching, she instructed that her burial should be in that place where she had given birth, which nevertheless her son would not permit. Having removed her body to Hostia, he buried her with honor in the Cathedral. On account of which, God has worked many miracles right up to the present day†(Berlin Manuscript[citation needed]).
Since the 14th Century, the figure of Pope Joan has taken on a somewhat saintly figure. There are stories of her figure appearing and performing miracles. Francesco Petrarch (1304-74) wrote in his Chronica de le Vite de Pontefici et Imperadori Romani that after Pope Joan had been revealed as a woman:
From what i can tell there realy is no proof there ever was a Pope Joan, but there are woman who could do such thing's even today, nothing is impossible but for me I would rather believe what can be proof then to believe or slander something, and that could be fable. Lots of people make up lies to make others look bad. We are all defending One God who at the moment, to all Athiests does not exist, and we have a problem to, we cannot prove He does exist. But what ever is right what ever is beautiful, what ever is lovely, look to those things. Isn't God lovely!!! lacy-1
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They are now showing this all over german tv here in Germny and many are shocked about the truth church catholic!
poor germany... as smart as germans are said to be they sure do seem to fall for the lies an awful lot... first luther, then hitler and now they actually believe pope joan legends? oh well and ho hum. those who seek truth shall find it and those that want conspiracy theories can have them.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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