Where is the true church?
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I have been told the Catholic church was the true church, i have been told the Baptist church was the true church, and so on, and so on, will the ral church please stand up! Give me the reason why please. Thank you very much. lacy-1
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Originally posted by lacy-1
I am so cunfused that al i want to do is stay home and just read the bible and not be bothered with any churches. The Catholic church is in the worls to much and their peole are boastful and have to much pride. They cannot or most never get married ever again after divorce or annulment. The strike me as being afraid of everything and cannot make any decisions without the Papacy redirecting them and telling them they should be aa holy as thou and become a nun or a priest ETC it seems they don't realy know how to love , realy love. i ahve not realy found one Catholic man who can realy love anything but young children and they all want purity and virgins and younger girls, Chasity, Chasity, Chasity, At least Jesus loved the prostitute and forgave her, he knew for every fallen woman there are 100 fallen men! They belive in procreation and after a woman cannot procreate any more, it's on to higher grounds(younger woman) How do you think a woman feel's about herself with having to live till death due you part with men that think like this? What an awfull life for your woman.I have herd it and seen it, so i know, but you don't speak all the truth. I find Catholics very hard and unforgiving. My opinion. lacy-1
Pride is a problem everywhere, not just the Catholic Church, we are human. However, if you think the Catholic Church is hard and unforgiving, you must find the Bible even more so.
Mark 10:11-12 "And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mar 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery."
Matthew 5:27-29 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell."
Matthew 19:9-12 "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Mat 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with [his] wife, it is not good to marry.
Mat 19:11 But he said unto them, All [men] cannot receive this saying, save [they] to whom it is given.
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it]."
It is not celebacy that is hard in Christ's eyes, but rather that marriage is a vocation that not all are called to.
1 Corinthians 7:7-11 "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
1Cr 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
1Cr 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
1Cr 7:10 And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband:
1Cr 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife."
Paul allows that we may marry for it is better to marry than to burn with lust (and end up in Hell); however, even he affirms that marriage is a lifetime commitment and even if we do divorce for any reason, we are commanded by God to not marry anyone other than our original spouse.
Funny, some say that the Catholic Church is too hard for not violating God's command and allowing men and women to remarry after divorce, while others condemn the practice of annulment as being too lenient - annulment is not the same as divorce. No one can dissolve what God has joined, but the Church can determine whether a marriage was valid in the first place or not.
Jesus and Paul were quite clear - those who commit adultery (whether by remarriage after divorce, watching pornography, or cheating in marriage) will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Neither will those who engage in fornication, sodomy, or masterbation (abusers of themselves).
John tells us that there is sin unto death (mortal sin) and sin that is not unto death (venial sin). So I am unclear as to where you think that the Church got it wrong in this matter.
If you have committed serious sin in the past, Jesus gave His Apostles the Authority to forgive sin (John 20:22-23 and see also James 5:14-16), and this enables us to become reconciled to Christ again when we stumble. But if you belong to a church that tells you that Jesus died so that we do not have to worry about sin anymore, then run like crazy as far from that church as you can.
The Bible is a good place to start for the truth, but Paul tells us that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth - this is in the Bible (1 Timothy 3:15).
The Book of Acts is also a very good place to look for ideas on how the Church should be.
Acts 14:22-23 "Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Act 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed."
Jesus established His Church as our safe refuge, our Sheepfold. And even if its members or leaders are not perfect, Christ's Church will always teach the Truth.
Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you."
God is not a god of confusion, if you believe that Hebrews is inspired scriptures and we are truly commanded to obey those who have rule over us, who then are the ones who have lawful rule over us? Men ordained as described in Acts 14, who have been ordained by lawfully ordained men back to the time of the Apostles? Or those men who have decided for themselves that Christ's original Church is too strict and have proclaimed themselves to be our leaders by their own personal authority?
FYI, Vatican II is the continuation of Vatican I, not some rogue council set up to counter the first. Councils have been an important part of Christ's Church since the beginning. The first council is described in Acts 15 and shows the authority of the Church in action.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
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Originally posted by lacy-1
I am so cunfused that al i want to do is stay home and just read the bible and not be bothered with any churches. The Catholic church is in the worls to much and their peole are boastful and have to much pride. They cannot or most never get married ever again after divorce or annulment. The strike me as being afraid of everything and cannot make any decisions without the Papacy redirecting them and telling them they should be aa holy as thou and become a nun or a priest ETC it seems they don't realy know how to love , realy love. i ahve not realy found one Catholic man who can realy love anything but young children and they all want purity and virgins and younger girls, Chasity, Chasity, Chasity, At least Jesus loved the prostitute and forgave her, he knew for every fallen woman there are 100 fallen men! They belive in procreation and after a woman cannot procreate any more, it's on to higher grounds(younger woman) How do you think a woman feel's about herself with having to live till death due you part with men that think like this? What an awfull life for your woman.I have herd it and seen it, so i know, but you don't speak all the truth. I find Catholics very hard and unforgiving. My opinion. lacy-1
Pride is a problem everywhere, not just the Catholic Church, we are human. However, if you think the Catholic Church is hard and unforgiving, you must find the Bible even more so.
 iN SOME OF THE OLD TESTEMENT YES! laci-1
Mark 10:11-12 "And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
You know how i read this? I read this as a man putting his wife away( putting her to death for falsly accusing her of adultry) I see this versea little deeper then on the surface.lacy-1
Mar 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery."
Same here!lacy-1
Matthew 5:27-29 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Then you know alot of people are in trouble, like the saying goes ther are few who enter in by the narrow gate.lacy-1
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell."
Matthew 19:9-12 "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
You know i agree with this and the law was allowed to change tis because people could not give evidence of it happening and alot of spouises admitted to it to their wives or husbands and itr was thrown out for lack of evidence. So they have ireconcilable differences, which means just don't get along or see eye to eye. lacy-1
Mat 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with [his] wife, it is not good to marry.
Mat 19:11 But he said unto them, All [men] cannot receive this saying, save [they] to whom it is given.
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it]."
Right but many are called and few are chosen.lacy-1
It is not celebacy that is hard in Christ's eyes, but rather that marriage is a vocation that not all are called to.
I disagree, where in the bible did Jesus say this???lacy-1
1 Corinthians 7:7-11 "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
Again misinterperted: Like as i means perfect in all way's.
Perfect gifts are Teaching like Jesus did, preching, prophecy,descernment or the 9 fruits of the spirit. lacy-1
1Cr 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
without sin and teachers of the word.
Jesus never came here with any intentions to get married he came to forfil his Fathers will. Save humanity from eternal death.lacy-1
1Cr 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
Paul aid this to.lacy-1
1Cr 7:10 And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband:
Because of the marriage laws of Christ.lacy-1
1Cr 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife."
It must have ben realy bad back then to. bbut jesus does not say these thing's lacy-1
Paul allows that we may marry for it is better to marry than to burn with lust (and end up in Hell); however, even he affirms that marriage is a lifetime commitment and even if we do divorce for any reason, we are commanded by God to not marry anyone other than our original spouse.
Why divorce in the first place if we have to remarry the same person over again. Again these are pauls rules not Jesus. lacy-1
Funny, some say that the Catholic Church is too hard for not violating God's command and allowing men and women to remarry after divorce, while others condemn the practice of annulment as being too lenient - annulment is not the same as divorce. No one can dissolve what God has joined, but the Church can determine whether a marriage was valid in the first place or not.
Jesus and Paul were quite clear - those who commit adultery (whether by remarriage after divorce, watching pornography, or cheating in marriage) will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Neither will those who engage in fornication, sodomy, or masterbation (abusers of themselves).
I disagree,you just said if you look at a woman and lust you have adulterated so most of the church is going to hell?Porn is a sick mind,cheating i agree is wrong, fornacation, sodomy, masterbation i disagree, if you want to open a thread about this lets do. lacy-1
John tells us that there is sin unto death (mortal sin) and sin that is not unto death (venial sin). So I am unclear as to where you think that the Church got it wrong in this matter.
I think sin unto dath is murder,God say's send them to me. Capitol punishment! how else can they get there?? lacy-1
If you have committed serious sin in the past, Jesus gave His Apostles the Authority to forgive sin (John 20:22-23 and see also James 5:14-16), and this enables us to become reconciled to Christ again when we stumble. But if you belong to a church that tells you that Jesus died so that we do not have to worry about sin anymore, then run like crazy as far from that church as you can.
I agree in confession yes! lacy-1
The Bible is a good place to start for the truth, but Paul tells us that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth - this is in the Bible (1 Timothy 3:15).
I agree how else can you learn? lacy-1
The Book of Acts is also a very good place to look for ideas on how the Church should be.
Acts 14:22-23 "Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Act 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed."
Who are the elders in the Catholic church?
Jesus established His Church as our safe refuge, our Sheepfold. And even if its members or leaders are not perfect, Christ's Church will always teach the Truth.
Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you."
I agree! lacy-1
God is not a god of confusion, if you believe that Hebrews is inspired scriptures and we are truly commanded to obey those who have rule over us, who then are the ones who have lawful rule over us? Men ordained as described in Acts 14, who have been ordained by lawfully ordained men back to the time of the Apostles? Or those men who have decided for themselves that Christ's original Church is too strict and have proclaimed themselves to be our leaders by their own personal authority?
But the Catholic church also goes by mans athority, but Jesus did say, :Do what they tell you, but don't do what they do!" lacy-1
FYI, Vatican II is the continuation of Vatican I, not some rogue council set up to counter the first. Councils have been an important part of Christ's Church since the beginning. The first council is described in Acts 15 and shows the authority of the Church in action.
I know someone who get banned from a forum because she talked about the vatican 1 being the true church, the original church, and that is has changed now. i don't know for sure because i don't know to say, but i do know she said she was banned for saying vatican 1 was the real church. lacy-1 Thank you for all the information i appreciated it, but you see what i agreed to, and did not agree to. God Bless you!
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Originally posted by lacy-1
To MikeJuli,
I herd that the Catholic church and the Orthodox were together one time at first, and they broke apart, before the feformation is that true? could that have started the reformation?
no... a least i don't see how it could have. the reformation happened for several reasons... and i personally have never been convinced that any of it was actually justified. the schism between east and west has some doctrinal issues but is more a result of location in a time long before communication.
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Also I don't put to much stark in geneology in the bible we are told not to barther with this.
well to be fair a geneology is not really the same as a succession. we aren't looking for a bloodline but a link of teaching and authority passed down from the start.
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Of course they had the trinity before the church was ever herd of, because they all belived in God and when Jesus came they believe in him so they had 2 of the trinity then Jesus said "After i am gone i will sene the comforter for you" So they then had a belief in the 3 devine in one Trinity before Jesus ever died right? The trinity goes way back before the church, or Peters church was formed, right? lacy-1
i would suggest trying to prove that. the early church has many hurdles to overcome and the idea of the trinity while there was never really developed and left too much open to really be called a belief. even today groups like the jw believe there was a jesus who was the son of god,,, but they certainly don't believe he was god. such disputes were abundant in the early years of the church and did take some time to settle out. the church(not sure what you mean by peters church) did not start with such doctrines spelled out for them.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Originally posted by thunderson
well, i definitely dont believe that many of the major doctrines of roman catholicism line up with the Bible,
i used to think the same exact thing. would you care to discuss some of the inconsistencies you believe exist?
once again i have trusted the Lord personally and I believe definitely that there is only one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus..I would no more pray to Mary or any saint than I would to my dead mother, that is totally alien to the word of God
but would you ask your wife to pray for you? your pastor or church? even though there is one mediator between god and man? it's inconsistent for a person to accuse catholics of having extra mediators when they do the same exact thing. the only difference is that our belief that those who have passed from this life are still able to pray to god for us... but that would have no bearing on an argument against mediators.
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...no pergatory to pay for sins...
thats blasphemy to what God did through Christ on the cross...
the belief of purgatory has nothing to do with paying for sins. many people often bring up purgatory but don't have a clue what it really means and so assume it's us paying for our sins...
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.one of the things that Christ warned about was groups or individuals coming and saying that we are the way, truth and life....saying that we are the only way and every thing else is error if you are not connected to us....thats got the smell of cult all over it....ONLY THRU US!!...
ummm isn't that basically what jesus said? does that mean jesus is a cult leader? or do you think that mormons jws hindu's are all o.k. to keep from making a claim to exclusiveness? the belief of the catholic church is not a denominational statement btw... understanding what the church actually means by it's claim makes all the difference and sets it appart from the exclusive claims from evangelical churches.
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simply put, the kingdom was going to be offered to people individually and as we know, the visible and powerful kingdom that is coming in the future was delayed by the rejection of the Son of God, but as stated in Isaiah and many other places, this did not take God by surprise...the kingdom that God now offers doesnt require your church or mine!!!
belief in the catholic church isn't a me vs your church problem... there is one church not just a bunch of people doing their own thing... not a bunch of churches all scrambling to get power over the others. the fact is that the church is one and unless individuals understand that they will tend to draw away from that communion for a more selfish, self centered religion. the church isn't a requirement, it is the body of christ which means its a necessity. a fish isn't required to live in water... it's a necessity.
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..people can access a living God and enter into the kingdom of God without any church belief or affiliation..just by hearing the Good news and responding to it sincerely..Jesus is the one that said Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man will hear my voice and open the door, I will come into him and dine with him, and he with me....wow...thats so simple that you need someone to help you misunderstand it!!!
but how is that an argument against the church? every person in the church has had their door knocked on and they answered. i think you confusing ideas here thundar. like if a person goes to a church then they cannot have a relationship with god? it's a popular view in todays world, especially after the sixties but it is not a view that is found in the new testament at all. the epistles and gospels and such were written to the church and for the church not to individuals.
at least not to individuals in the way you mean.. as something that could exist independant of the body.
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.I of course do believe that we should belong to and attend church, but not one that teaches US US US and only us...once again...thats the CULT ALERT!....
but wait.. .isn't that exactly what your promoting?
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i understand and respect the strong feelings and beliefs that many have about their churches, but i believe that we can be very sincere and be sincerely wrong..
ahhh but here is the rub... can you apply that to yourself? again i once used to say the same thing... but then i had to look at myself and consider that maybe i was the one being sincere and wrong. can you apply the criticism you direct at others to your own beliefs?
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.as i said in an earlier post that we better let God be true and every man a liar..I wouldnt want to stand before the Lord and him say "you trusted a church as your saviour and not my Son"...as i stated earlier, accept no substitute, the Lord saves us individually or we are not saved!!
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i'm not sure how anyone could believe that the church is their saviour.. what do you mean by this and who do you think believes such a thing?
mike
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Originally posted by lacy-1
I am so cunfused that al i want to do is stay home and just read the bible and not be bothered with any churches. The Catholic church is in the worls to much and their peole are boastful and have to much pride. They cannot or most never get married ever again after divorce or annulment. The strike me as being afraid of everything and cannot make any decisions without the Papacy redirecting them and telling them they should be aa holy as thou and become a nun or a priest ETC it seems they don't realy know how to love , realy love. i ahve not realy found one Catholic man who can realy love anything but young children and they all want purity and virgins and younger girls, Chasity, Chasity, Chasity, At least Jesus loved the prostitute and forgave her, he knew for every fallen woman there are 100 fallen men! They belive in procreation and after a woman cannot procreate any more, it's on to higher grounds(younger woman) How do you think a woman feel's about herself with having to live till death due you part with men that think like this? What an awfull life for your woman.I have herd it and seen it, so i know, but you don't speak all the truth. I find Catholics very hard and unforgiving. My opinion. lacy-1
really? that sounds more like a list of stereotypes to me. have you really come to these conclusions on your own and if so why? i mean i know there are some real ****s out there but then i also know that many people that aren't catholics are also ****s... it would be very unproductive to merely blanket over everything with stereotypes and then just give up. those that seek truth will find it lacy... but you have to really seek it and not just weasel out. you say you find catholics very hard and unforgiving... but aren't your opinions hard and unforgiving too?
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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The Christian life isn't meant to be lived by a person hanging out at home reading the Bible. It is meant to be lived as a community.
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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Originally posted by lacy-1
quote:
Originally posted by thunderson
well, i definitely dont believe that many of the major doctrines of roman catholicism line up with the Bible, once again i have trusted the Lord personally and I believe definitely that there is only one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus..I would no more pray to Mary or any saint than I would to my dead mother, that is totally alien to the word of God...no pergatory to pay for sins...thats blasphemy to what God did through Christ on the cross....one of the things that Christ warned about was groups or individuals coming and saying that we are the way, truth and life....saying that we are the only way and every thing else is error if you are not connected to us....thats got the smell of cult all over it....ONLY THRU US!!...when Nicodemus came to Jesus in John 3, he came as a representative of the Pharisees saying...We know that you are a teacher come from God for no man could do the miracles you do without God being with him...the Jews were totally obsessed with the kingdom coming, because they were just a shadow of their former selves and they hated Rome..so before Nicodemus could ask Jesus a question about the kingdom, Jesus told him that unless a man was born again, he would not be able to see (understand, belong to, operate in) the kingdom...simply put, the kingdom was going to be offered to people individually and as we know, the visible and powerful kingdom that is coming in the future was delayed by the rejection of the Son of God, but as stated in Isaiah and many other places, this did not take God by surprise...the kingdom that God now offers doesnt require your church or mine!!!...people can access a living God and enter into the kingdom of God without any church belief or affiliation..just by hearing the Good news and responding to it sincerely..Jesus is the one that said Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man will hear my voice and open the door, I will come into him and dine with him, and he with me....wow...thats so simple that you need someone to help you misunderstand it!!!.I of course do believe that we should belong to and attend church, but not one that teaches US US US and only us...once again...thats the CULT ALERT!....i understand and respect the strong feelings and beliefs that many have about their churches, but i believe that we can be very sincere and be sincerely wrong...as i said in an earlier post that we better let God be true and every man a liar..I wouldnt want to stand before the Lord and him say "you trusted a church as your saviour and not my Son"...as i stated earlier, accept no substitute, the Lord saves us individually or we are not saved!!
I agree so far, sounds fair to me lacy-1
I second this also!
Awesome!
praise The Lord!
Shalom
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Originally posted by Theophilus
The Christian life isn't meant to be lived by a person hanging out at home reading the Bible. It is meant to be lived as a community.
I think lacy-1 hate religion and religion or churchy is what chasing her away, to stay at home.
I can understand her observations!
Lacy-1 if you can't find a good bible led church then at least start small and God will lead you too a loving righteous people cell group or house group, so that a local church or religion decieve you!
God will still love you even if you don't go to a church but going to a bible led church is in God will for born again Christians.
Just don't give up on Jesus who is your root and loves you so much even when you go wrong, or don't do the right things.
You are Blessed, and righteous , wnen you have Jesus in your heart and He is Lord of your Life.
When you continue to seek God with all your heart even at home for now the Holy Spirit will guide you to a loving honest church, but seek the Kingdom of God and the rest and truth will be reveal to you sooner or latter!
Just keep loving the Lord, and that blesses Him above all other thing , rules , regulations and religious works, of legalism.
You are free indeed in Jesus!
Shalom
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 10/12/2009 12:08:43
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Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
Originally posted by lacy-1
To MikeJuli,
I herd that the Catholic church and the Orthodox were together one time at first, and they broke apart, before the feformation is that true? could that have started the reformation?
no... a least i don't see how it could have. the reformation happened for several reasons... and i personally have never been convinced that any of it was actually justified. the schism between east and west has some doctrinal issues but is more a result of location in a time long before communication.
The schism between East and West occurred in 1054 and had a lot to do with egos. The strife between east and west had been ongoing for centuries and the east was always historically in error. The schism occurred mainly over the filioque clause in the Nicene Creed and the supremacy of the bishop of Rome. Again, even though the Creed was revised to "[The Holy Spirit] proceeds from the Father" to "proceeds from the Father and the Son" to be more theologically correct, the Orthodox rejected the change. On the issue of the authority of the Bishop or Rome, the irony is that this authority was defended in great detail by several Eastern fathers of the church including arguably the greatest Eastern theologian ever, St. John Chrysostom.
As I recall from past reading, some of the "reformers" actually corresponded with the Orthodox Church, but eventually found them way too Catholic to join, especially concerning the new inventions of "Faith Alone" and "Scripture Alone".
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Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
Originally posted by lacy-1
I am so cunfused that al i want to do is stay home and just read the bible and not be bothered with any churches. The Catholic church is in the worls to much and their peole are boastful and have to much pride. They cannot or most never get married ever again after divorce or annulment. The strike me as being afraid of everything and cannot make any decisions without the Papacy redirecting them and telling them they should be aa holy as thou and become a nun or a priest ETC it seems they don't realy know how to love , realy love. i ahve not realy found one Catholic man who can realy love anything but young children and they all want purity and virgins and younger girls, Chasity, Chasity, Chasity, At least Jesus loved the prostitute and forgave her, he knew for every fallen woman there are 100 fallen men! They belive in procreation and after a woman cannot procreate any more, it's on to higher grounds(younger woman) How do you think a woman feel's about herself with having to live till death due you part with men that think like this? What an awfull life for your woman.I have herd it and seen it, so i know, but you don't speak all the truth. I find Catholics very hard and unforgiving. My opinion. lacy-1
really? that sounds more like a list of stereotypes to me. have you really come to these conclusions on your own and if so why? i mean i know there are some real ****s out there but then i also know that many people that aren't catholics are also ****s... it would be very unproductive to merely blanket over everything with stereotypes and then just give up. those that seek truth will find it lacy... but you have to really seek it and not just weasel out. you say you find catholics very hard and unforgiving... but aren't your opinions hard and unforgiving too?
Hello, I have come to these conclusions by the media and some people i know. I know there are alot of wonderful catholic's out there. i am not against the faith, but i need to be convinced in some of the things you do, and believe ,i think is cruel or hard on people in general.I have grown up alot in the past few months just listening to the Catholics and how they talk and discuss other beliefs and people. I had never used a coumpuet ever before until last November and i have learned so much the hard way. I cried alot and was very unhappy because of thing's people of the faith said to me and did to me. I determined that all of you mustbe the same you even said you are all one body right? What do you expect me to think? I am not looking for excuses i am looking for reasoning, come let us reason together. you didn't believe me when i said they knew about the trinity before Jesus left, how do you know that? I thought Jesus was the best teacher ever, he was a teacher and instructor, and a healer, and all and all.Why would you think only your church knew about things when the decipals devided and went to other lands and tought people we didn't even know? And the Domino effect took place so we are not realy sure which church has all the actual facts today. And aolt of history has been destorted. People lied then just as much as today. I want to believe but i still have questions i will open a thread.
lacy-1
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
Originally posted by lacy-1
To MikeJuli,
I herd that the Catholic church and the Orthodox were together one time at first, and they broke apart, before the feformation is that true? could that have started the reformation?
no... a least i don't see how it could have. the reformation happened for several reasons... and i personally have never been convinced that any of it was actually justified. the schism between east and west has some doctrinal issues but is more a result of location in a time long before communication.
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Also I don't put to much stark in geneology in the bible we are told not to barther with this.
well to be fair a geneology is not really the same as a succession. we aren't looking for a bloodline but a link of teaching and authority passed down from the start.
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Of course they had the trinity before the church was ever herd of, because they all belived in God and when Jesus came they believe in him so they had 2 of the trinity then Jesus said "After i am gone i will sene the comforter for you" So they then had a belief in the 3 devine in one Trinity before Jesus ever died right? The trinity goes way back before the church, or Peters church was formed, right? lacy-1
i would suggest trying to prove that. the early church has many hurdles to overcome and the idea of the trinity while there was never really developed and left too much open to really be called a belief. even today groups like the jw believe there was a jesus who was the son of god,,, but they certainly don't believe he was god. such disputes were abundant in the early years of the church and did take some time to settle out. the church(not sure what you mean by peters church) did not start with such doctrines spelled out for them.
Now come on! Of course they did, they knew even back in Davids day and then Isiahs day, that a Messiah was comming to redeem them. even Nebakeneza knew the form of the 4th man was like the Son of God??? Then after Jesus came, he worked all the time with the decipals and don't you think he would have told them he would be there in essance of the Holy Spirit? Common sence. He told them," I go to prepare a place for you, so that where i am you may be also, if i do not go then the Comforter cannot come." Now if you look that up in it's original language, you will find that we in changing alot of the book of the Bible, have changed alot of the original meaning(Comming to you with another gospel) and alot of people have lost interest in the bible now, because of all the intrpertations and scripture left out or not tought, because it might bring down condemnation on the church. Why don't you teach Revelations? you say it already happened. Well guess what? you are not going to be prepared for when it does happen, it will be like what Jesus, said "they will all be running around, to and fro like in Noah;'s day, until the flood came and swept them all away! No thanks; I want to be prepared no matter what church, is doing what. if they are at least teaching what the holy spirit tought i am for it . If God be for you, who cn be against you? John was one of Jesus favorite decipals he lived to be in his 90's and died in his sleep.lacy-1
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Hello, I have come to these conclusions by the media and some people i know. I know there are alot of wonderful catholic's out there. i am not against the faith, but i need to be convinced in some of the things you do, and believe ,i think is cruel or hard on people in general.
i can totally relate... remember i once left the church... actually severed myself from it.
quote:
I have grown up alot in the past few months just listening to the Catholics and how they talk and discuss other beliefs and people. I had never used a coumpuet ever before until last November and i have learned so much the hard way. I cried alot and was very unhappy because of thing's people of the faith said to me and did to me.
again i totally can relate... but not just to catholics... evangelicals protestants the whole shebang. keep in ming though that it's hard to read emotions on the net. some have accused me of being a big meany in discussions... when i'm just having some fun and good debate. i have learned to just not try to read emotions and not get offended even when it really seems to be an outright attack. when dealing with faith you have to expect to be offended.
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I determined that all of you mustbe the same you even said you are all one body right? What do you expect me to think? I am not looking for excuses i am looking for reasoning, come let us reason together. you didn't believe me when i said they knew about the trinity before Jesus left, how do you know that?
well for one the word trinity isn't used in the bible... at all. the jews never accepted or refered to the trinity, and any overview of early church history will demonstrate the extremes of christological arguments... not only about the trinity but even the very nature of the son. it's not that i don't see biblical proof and i certainly don't think the trinity didn't exist before christ... but what was not understood was how it all fit together. we see it's development over may years and not something formally preached.
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I thought Jesus was the best teacher ever, he was a teacher and instructor, and a healer, and all and all.
he was.. but that didn't mean that everything was laid out... otherwise he wouldn't have said anything about the comforter coming to lead into all truth. it took 15 years and paul to get past circumcision...
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Why would you think only your church knew about things when the decipals devided and went to other lands and tought people we didn't even know?
because the disciples weren't divided but in one accord. there is no "MY" when it comes to church for the catholic.
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And the Domino effect took place so we are not realy sure which church has all the actual facts today. And aolt of history has been destorted. People lied then just as much as today. I want to believe but i still have questions i will open a thread.
lacy-1
please never stop asking questions lacy.... even when the answers seem to come back hard... for myself i don't believe that history is so distorted that you cannot find the truth. i used to be very anti catholic... but also had a great interest in church history.. there was a lot of pseudo history that i had to sort through but my path eventually lead me back to the church. i didn't avoid difficult issues but i also had to learn to accept difficult answers... espeically the ones that challenged my own beliefs.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Now come on! Of course they did, they knew even back in Davids day and then Isiahs day, that a Messiah was comming to redeem them. even Nebakeneza knew the form of the 4th man was like the Son of God??
like i said you need to prove that. satan is refered to as a son of god. isaiahs prophecy came true in his own time about emmanuel and there was no reason to think that the prophecy would have a double meaning.... as a matter of fact nothing really would suggest that there was a trinity outright.
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Then after Jesus came, he worked all the time with the decipals and don't you think he would have told them he would be there in essance of the Holy Spirit? Common sence.
i agree but the fact is that even if he did... the term isn't mentioned in the bible and the early church had a lot of questions and ideas about how it all fit together....
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He told them," I go to prepare a place for you, so that where i am you may be also, if i do not go then the Comforter cannot come."
which could mean a lot of things and does mean a lot of things to many different people. i know what the church teaches about this and it's conclusion is the trinity but it's not as evident as you seem to think it is.
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Now if you look that up in it's original language, you will find that we in changing alot of the book of the Bible, have changed alot of the original meaning(Comming to you with another gospel).
do you speak greek?... i mean i hear this a lot from people that simply are not even slightly able to read those original languages.
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and alot of people have lost interest in the bible now, because of all the intrpertations and scripture left out or not tought, because it might bring down condemnation on the church.
a lot of people have lost interest... mostly because there are sooooo many people claiming to interpret it and contradicting everyone else that it's does seem to be a huge cluster. that is just more a reason to understand tradition in the sacred sense and stop trying to be your own pope.
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Why don't you teach Revelations? you say it already happened. Well guess what? you are not going to be prepared for when it does happen, it will be like what Jesus, said "they will all be running around, to and fro like in Noah;'s day, until the flood came and swept them all away! No thanks;[/.q I want to be prepared no matter what church, is doing what. if they are at least teaching what the holy spirit tought i am for it . If God be for you, who cn be against you? John was one of Jesus favorite decipals he lived to be in his 90's and died in his sleep.lacy-1
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
Now come on! Of course they did, they knew even back in Davids day and then Isiahs day, that a Messiah was comming to redeem them. even Nebakeneza knew the form of the 4th man was like the Son of God??
like i said you need to prove that. satan is refered to as a son of god. isaiahs prophecy came true in his own time about emmanuel and there was no reason to think that the prophecy would have a double meaning.... as a matter of fact nothing really would suggest that there was a trinity outright.
quote:
Then after Jesus came, he worked all the time with the decipals and don't you think he would have told them he would be there in essance of the Holy Spirit? Common sence.
i agree but the fact is that even if he did... the term isn't mentioned in the bible and the early church had a lot of questions and ideas about how it all fit together....
quote:
He told them," I go to prepare a place for you, so that where i am you may be also, if i do not go then the Comforter cannot come."
which could mean a lot of things and does mean a lot of things to many different people. i know what the church teaches about this and it's conclusion is the trinity but it's not as evident as you seem to think it is.
quote:
Now if you look that up in it's original language, you will find that we in changing alot of the book of the Bible, have changed alot of the original meaning(Comming to you with another gospel).
do you speak greek?... i mean i hear this a lot from people that simply are not even slightly able to read those original languages.
quote:
and alot of people have lost interest in the bible now, because of all the intrpertations and scripture left out or not tought, because it might bring down condemnation on the church.
a lot of people have lost interest... mostly because there are sooooo many people claiming to interpret it and contradicting everyone else that it's does seem to be a huge cluster. that is just more a reason to understand tradition in the sacred sense and stop trying to be your own pope.
quote:
Why don't you teach Revelations? you say it already happened. Well guess what? you are not going to be prepared for when it does happen, it will be like what Jesus, said "they will all be running around, to and fro like in Noah;'s day, until the flood came and swept them all away! No thanks;[/.q I want to be prepared no matter what church, is doing what. if they are at least teaching what the holy spirit tought i am for it . If God be for you, who cn be against you? John was one of Jesus favorite decipals he lived to be in his 90's and died in his sleep.lacy-1
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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-
Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
Now come on! Of course they did, they knew even back in Davids day and then Isiahs day, that a Messiah was comming to redeem them. even Nebakeneza knew the form of the 4th man was like the Son of God??
like i said you need to prove that. satan is refered to as a son of god. isaiahs prophecy came true in his own time about emmanuel and there was no reason to think that the prophecy would have a double meaning.... as a matter of fact nothing really would suggest that there was a trinity outright.
quote:
Then after Jesus came, he worked all the time with the decipals and don't you think he would have told them he would be there in essance of the Holy Spirit? Common sence.
i agree but the fact is that even if he did... the term isn't mentioned in the bible and the early church had a lot of questions and ideas about how it all fit together....
quote:
He told them," I go to prepare a place for you, so that where i am you may be also, if i do not go then the Comforter cannot come."
which could mean a lot of things and does mean a lot of things to many different people. i know what the church teaches about this and it's conclusion is the trinity but it's not as evident as you seem to think it is.
quote:
Now if you look that up in it's original language, you will find that we in changing alot of the book of the Bible, have changed alot of the original meaning(Comming to you with another gospel).
do you speak greek?... i mean i hear this a lot from people that simply are not even slightly able to read those original languages.
quote:
and alot of people have lost interest in the bible now, because of all the intrpertations and scripture left out or not tought, because it might bring down condemnation on the church.
a lot of people have lost interest... mostly because there are sooooo many people claiming to interpret it and contradicting everyone else that it's does seem to be a huge cluster. that is just more a reason to understand tradition in the sacred sense and stop trying to be your own pope.
quote:
Why don't you teach Revelations? you say it already happened. Well guess what? you are not going to be prepared for when it does happen, it will be like what Jesus, said "they will all be running around, to and fro like in Noah;'s day, until the flood came and swept them all away! No thanks;
we do teach revelation. (no s at the end).. and i'm just going to say that if you get hung up on all that sensationalism your going to miss what revelation is really about. i have known tooo many christians that just got too rapture crazy and ended up completely useless paranoid fanatics crying antichrist at everything.
quote:
I want to be prepared no matter what church, is doing what. if they are at least teaching what the holy spirit tought i am for it . If God be for you, who cn be against you? John was one of Jesus favorite decipals he lived to be in his 90's and died in his sleep.lacy-1
and you should be prepared... just don't be fooled by all that ear ticklin conspiracy crap that passes as theology in many modern sects. you want the teaching of the holy spirit then you need to look at the sacred tradition of the church.... it is the only valid possibility...
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
Edited by mikejuli on 10/12/2009 16:46:18
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