Where is the true church?
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I have been told the Catholic church was the true church, i have been told the Baptist church was the true church, and so on, and so on, will the ral church please stand up! Give me the reason why please. Thank you very much. lacy-1
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quote:
Originally posted by lacy-1
Faith_ at_ Large, I have another question for you. In the first thread you mentioned that if you were divorced you could only remarry your first wife, now That to me is a sin more, because you did away with her so you copuld be with someone else, and then took her back ? So it was just to be with another and then you can come back? That is stupid! Also an annulment is not a divorce? But you can get remarried right? What do they give annulments for? I still disagree with having to be alone. I told you this before, that if someone does you wrong, and you have to divorce them, it is not right for you to ahve to pay and live like a widow if you are young Doesn'tPaul say if the woman is young she can get remarried? What if an older woman wants to also? She is differnt? NO that is strange and pregedist! I am trying to see this and believe but i cannot, but if the Pope siad it was oK it would be? Lets say there were no couples left? Some one would have to start it all over again,. so why not just let people do this? It isn't because God does not want it, it is because of man not wanting his wife any more, so he goes out and cheats.And it is the woman who has to forgive him? What 70x70? Bull! I almost had it today about abortion, i almost belived because of Psalms 139, and i saw what you were talking about. I was sick about child abuse and children having baby's at 10 years old etc. And dieing in child birth, it is wrong to pick the cherry's just because they are ripe, and it is wrong to insist a baby have a baby to. Those are a few i am having trouble with. And i get all mad and think the Catholic's are hard core! Can't help it. lacy-1
Oh' where to start. First off, child abuse is rarely the result of an unplanned pregnancy - if this were the case, it would have declined with the improvements in birth control and abortion. In fact many cases of child abuse were from mothers who opted to get pregnant in order to "trap her man" into a commitment he did not want. There are many other reasons as well. None good, but none connected in any way with the abortion issue.
As for the rest. Divorce is permissable, remarriage after divorce is not - that is from the Bible. If anything, the Catholic Church is far too chicken to go against God.
If you desire to belong to a church where Christ's commands are mere suggestions, I suggest you go speak with Evangelist - has he got a church for you. You will love it.
Now for annulment, this is not the same as divorce. Divorce separates a legitimate marriage. Annulments are not restricted to the Catholic Church - two pagans getting hitched in Vegas can get an annulment if they meet the requirements of law. An annulment is a ruling that a marriage never properly took place from the beginning.
For example, Britney Spears got an annulment for her five hour Vegas wedding, granted by a judge not a bishop. She had never intended to make a legitament marriage with the man she married. It was a twisted joke.
There are a number of reasons why a marriage might not be valid. Some examples are as follows:
1. One has to be aware that they are getting married - being stoned out your mind on your wedding day might well be grounds for annulment as you were not capable of making a legal decision to marry.
2. On has to be free to get married. If you spouse was already married to someone else when he married you, then your marriage is not legal and you have grounds for annulment.
3. One has willing to get married - if Daddy has a shotgun to your spouse's head during the ceremony, that union is not legal and there are grounds for annulment.
4. If your spouse lied to you about wanting or being able to produce children, and you find out after the wedding, you have grounds for annulment.
There are many more scenarios, but I hope you get the idea.
In the New Testament, there is provision for married converts whose spouses do not convert. If the pagan spouse is willing to allow his or her wife to practice his or her Christian faith, then the Christian is to remain married; however, if the pagan spouse rejects the Christian spouse, they are free to separate and the convert is free from all obligation. This also holds true if the marriage was acceptable under pagan rules, but not under God's rules - for example, if you were married to your brother and converted to Christianity, that marriage would not be valid or licit under Christian rules and would be annuled.
No where in the Bible or in the Church does it require that you remarry your spouse, you just cannot marry anyone else. It would be foolish to return to an abusive spouse, especially if there are children to be protected.
Of course, if one is living a proper Christian lifestyle, marriages are less likely to be a problem requiring divorce.
Divorce is far more likely among those who have been sexually active prior to marriage, and astronomical among those who live together first, and among couples using artificial birth control, and certainly among those who are not big on fidelity.
If one is living as Christ wanted, we avoid a whole lot of trouble.
No one wakes up one morning and decides to beat his wife, or her husband. No one just becomes a falling down drunk after they get married. The signs of problems are always present beforehand, but many think that things will just get better after they are married.
I have seen many people get married and divorced and in every single case, it was possible to see the future divorce before the couple made their wedding vows. For me it was always like watching a trainwreck in slow motion. I have been fortunate that the weddings I participated in directly (my friends and family) were ones that I knew would work, and so far they have have - beautifully.
If more people followed God's commands, we would all be a lot happier.
The question you need to ask yourself is do you want to take up your cross and follow Christ, or do you just want to pay lipservice?
If you only want cheap grace, Jack Chick has a "sinner's prayer" that you can say - and after that you can do as you please, no strings attached, he and many others promise guaranteed salvation. But be warned, whatever you choose to do, you are staking your immortal soul on that choice.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Member since 07/10/2003
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If you really what a true church , then just accept Jesus who is Lord and you as being a church or a temple, will have the truth in you , the way, and the life of the true church which is the author and finisher of your faith in Christ Jesus , not a membership of some society or religious club at large!
Seek first the spiritual Kingdom of God and the rest will be a very good fruit in the natural and spiritual realm!
Lacy-1, is a church a society membership, or person to you, or a building?????
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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So a Muslim has salvation but Christians from other denominations don’t???
According to :
Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Member since 07/10/2003
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So a Muslim has salvation but Christians from other denominations don’t???
According to :
Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims
my source:
http://www.romancatholicteachings.com/catholic_catechism/catechism2.html
Maybe someone here has a infallible Catholic true church source about this CC trent 841, unless this has changed???
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
So a Muslim has salvation but Christians from other denominations don’t???
According to :
Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims
That is not what that says. Muslims may be saved, just as any other non-Catholics may be saved - by doing God's Will, not by being good "muslims" or good members of any other group. It is not the heresies that save, but the Truth where-ever it may be.
But I would not rely on any other religious tradition to save me. Muslims may be saved, but that is not a guarantee.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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New Member
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PM
Member since 10/11/2009
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
So a Muslim has salvation but Christians from other denominations don�t???
According to :
Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims
my source:
http://www.romancatholicteachings.com/catholic_catechism/catechism2.html
Maybe someone here has a infallible Catholic true church source about this CC trent 841, unless this has changed???
one love
Evangelist, Where did you get this? Was it a Catholic site? Also i was told they(Moslems and anyone who belives in God can be called Christians, We cannot change them They have their Mohomad and they are very strong in their beliefs. I changed from bAPTIST BACK TO Catholic and i could have stayed Baptist and i still would have fit in? Where are all the Catholic's??? Off on Saturday's? lacy-1
Freedom!
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New Member
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Member since 10/11/2009
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
If you really what a true church , then just accept Jesus who is Lord and you as being a church or a temple, will have the truth in you , the way, and the life of the true church which is the author and finisher of your faith in Christ Jesus , not a membership of some society or religious club at large!
Seek first the spiritual Kingdom of God and the rest will be a very good fruit in the natural and spiritual realm!
Lacy-1, is a church a society membership, or person to you, or a building?????
 HI, I think like i have alway's thought that Jesus can live inside you and you should be able to take him all over with you Greater is he that is in me then he that is in the world. I am a member of 2 differn woman groups, and i am just me, my membership realy dosent mean mcuh if i am not there or if i don't feel like i belong But it dies show you are one body of people in a group that all agree in what you are doing for mankind.ETC That is what the church body consists of, one body, one mind, one spirit. I am not there yet cause i have some problems with a few laws. i know the Catholic church is the real church of Jesus Christ but he did not put these rules that the Vatican did, and i just wonder if they could be wrong? (In a few thing's) lacy-1
Freedom!
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Lacy-1, Jesus Christ gave authority to His Apostles and their successors to bind and loose. So much authority, that whatsoever they bind or loose on earth, is also bound or loosed in Heaven.
So according to Jesus Christ, the Vatican speaks on Christ's behalf and with Christ's authority. Unless Jesus personally comes down from Heaven and vetoes something declared by the Pope or the Vatican, it is binding upon all the faithful.
And to be clear, belief in God is ont the same as belief in Christ, unless they acknowledge that Christ is God.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
I would remind you also, Lacy-1, that while invincible ignorance may protect many outside the Church, those who know that the Catholic Church is the True Church established by Christ are obligated to join her. Failure to do this is a very serious sin.
We are not free to shop around to find a church that fits with our own religious hang-ups or personal preferences. It is necessary that we belong to the church that we believe that Jesus established. Many non-Catholics have a different idea about what a church and so may be forgiven for not understanding the fullness of what Jesus meant.
Evangelist is right about one thing, the Church is not a building. The Church is the Body of Christ, made up of all of us. And the Head of the Church is Jesus Christ as our High Priest and King and perfect Victim. Under our High Priest is His servant the Pope and the Bishops, Presbyters (priests) and Deacons. Those that to not accept the lawful authority of those that Christ put in charge, are like the Gentiles in the outer court at the Temple of Jerusalem. They believe but cannot fully participate in Christ's Church.
There is much more to the Catholic Church than you seem to understand, but your recent posts from the Early Church Fathers might help you to at least understand the basics. Do nothing without the Bishop.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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New Member
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Member since 10/11/2009
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
So a Muslim has salvation but Christians from other denominations don�t???
According to :
Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims
That is not what that says. Muslims may be saved, just as any other non-Catholics may be saved - by doing God's Will, not by being good "muslims" or good members of any other group. It is not the heresies that save, but the Truth where-ever it may be.
But I would not rely on any other religious tradition to save me. Muslims may be saved, but that is not a guarantee.
 Where ever it may be? It is in the church, the body of Christ, and if they don't agree with the church that Jesus is Lord and the Son of God then they are not saved, they serve a differnt god not the Father of Christ! lacy-1
Freedom!
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New Member
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Member since 10/11/2009
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
So a Muslim has salvation but Christians from other denominations don�t???
According to :
Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims
That is not what that says. Muslims may be saved, just as any other non-Catholics may be saved - by doing God's Will, not by being good "muslims" or good members of any other group. It is not the heresies that save, but the Truth where-ever it may be.
But I would not rely on any other religious tradition to save me. Muslims may be saved, but that is not a guarantee.
 NO! it is a crock of ----! If you don't confess with your whole heart Jesus is Lord, you will not enter into the kingdom of God! lacy-1
Freedom!
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Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
It is not a crock, and yes they must confess Jesus as Lord before they may enter Heaven.
They also have a starting point from which this may become possible for them. The Catholic Church does not deny them hope of salvation, and it is up to Christ to bring them home to His Church.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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New Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 10/11/2009
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
It is not a crock, and yes they must confess Jesus as Lord before they may enter Heaven.
They also have a starting point from which this may become possible for them. The Catholic Church does not deny them hope of salvation, and it is up to Christ to bring them home to His Church.
This machine does not work for me, I am not arguing with you about if they confess that they believe in Jesus I just wanted to make a point that they shouldn't be considered as Christians until they do confess, just like i had to do and everyone else who loves the Lord and is Baptized into his church. By the By: Do they get baptized at all? How do they pay for their sins? lacy-1
Freedom!
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Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
No one is considered to be a Christian unless and until they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. No one is saying otherwise. Certainly not the Catechism or any sensible Catholic.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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PM
Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
Catholic Catechism, par. 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. 'The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.' [LG 16; cf. NA 3.]".
So a Muslim has salvation but Christians from other denominations don’t??? 
one love
now how would you get that from that statement? god's plan of salvation is for everyone evan... that's plan of salvation... not that they are saved.. but that god certainly want's them to be... and as you read on you see that is explained...
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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