Where is the true church?
-
-
New Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 10/11/2009
I have been told the Catholic church was the true church, i have been told the Baptist church was the true church, and so on, and so on, will the ral church please stand up! Give me the reason why please. Thank you very much. lacy-1
Freedom!
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
evan stop being so difficult... it's obvious we recognize the differences in our beliefs about god.. but the fact is that they still see through a glass even darker than ours.... we aren't saying they have the same revelation as us, or as complete as us.. but they also are not promoting moloch or shirley mcclain. it is interesting that in many cultures you can find an unnamed god.... oh wait... was paul saying that the greeks believed in the same god...?
mike
no but paul made a great point using their unknown god.
22 "Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23"For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
—Acts 17:22-17:31, (KJV)
I think the greeks had many goddess and pagan gods is that the same God you worship Mike?
one love
it's hard to see how you can accept scripture here and deny this same scriptural reasoning when dealing with muslims or jews.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Hello FAL
If you were to tell people you knew me evangelist and all other peole say they know me also the same person and his name is evangelist or C.Moore, but say I come from china have slanted eyes, and I speak Chinesse, and english , and I am 90 years old also I am a athiest and hate christians would that make me the same Evangelist you know here as being an born again american from boston Mass but lives in Germany which I do and who is black and not yellow a evangelist christian believer????
Yes or no FAL??
one love
actually that happens all the time... i know lots of people or even like lot's of things that other people describe as completely different. for instance i really liked a boss i had... but there was another guy who described him as a bad boss, and always mean.... which he was never mean that i knew.. but we both worked for the guy so there was no mistaking the object. another example is how i like some movies.... they may have been really funny to me but the other person just thought they were stupid. and again i am a catholic and hearing some people describe the catholic church from anticatholic perspectives i would like to think that they are talking about another church but know that they are just ignorant and don't really know the church as fully as me.. it's the same with a group that doesn't know the full revelation of god in jesus. they know a lot about god, he's creator, he is one, etc etc... but they don't know the full revelation that he came down, he died, he rose, and will come again. a blind many may feel my hand and i have a fuller revelation because i can fully see my hand... we're still talking about the same hand.... it would be silly to accuse the blind man of feeling another hand just because he cannot see.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Hello FAL
If you were to tell people you knew me evangelist and all other peole say they know me also the same person and his name is evangelist or C.Moore, but say I come from china have slanted eyes, and I speak Chinesse, and english , and I am 90 years old also I am a athiest and hate christians would that make me the same Evangelist you know here as being an born again american from boston Mass but lives in Germany which I do and who is black and not yellow a evangelist christian believer????
Yes or no FAL??
one love
actually that happens all the time... i know lots of people or even like lot's of things that other people describe as completely different. for instance i really liked a boss i had... but there was another guy who described him as a bad boss, and always mean.... which he was never mean that i knew.. but we both worked for the guy so there was no mistaking the object. another example is how i like some movies.... they may have been really funny to me but the other person just thought they were stupid. and again i am a catholic and hearing some people describe the catholic church from anticatholic perspectives i would like to think that they are talking about another church but know that they are just ignorant and don't really know the church as fully as me.. it's the same with a group that doesn't know the full revelation of god in jesus. they know a lot about god, he's creator, he is one, etc etc... but they don't know the full revelation that he came down, he died, he rose, and will come again. a blind many may feel my hand and i have a fuller revelation because i can fully see my hand... we're still talking about the same hand.... it would be silly to accuse the blind man of feeling another hand just because he cannot see.
But the way other see it is like your hand you give to some óne else they say it is your feet, or that good person you describe is a good dog or monkey, which none of their description is correct.
God is love and He is a Spirit , also He is Jesus in flesh which Islam deny even to the worst as saying God doesn't even have a Son.
The bible say who doesn't have the Son of God doesn't have the Father God period no matter how you translate His name.
1Jo:2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo:2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
So if they don't have the Son of God what God do they have?
Even the bible teaches that they are anti Christ and don't have the God of the bible.
If your RCC goes against the bible then you might can say they are right which would make your church Anti Christ!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
quote:
But the way other see it is like your hand you give to some óne else they say it is your feet, or that good person you describe is a good dog or monkey, which none of their description is correct.
God is love and He is a Spirit , also He is Jesus in flesh which Islam deny even to the worst as saying God doesn't even have a Son.
The bible say who doesn't have the Son of God doesn't have the Father God period no matter how you translate His name.
yes i understand that, and so does the catechism... but you don't seem to think we do even after we say so and show you that the catechism says so... but rather than try to alienate those that believe differently we are trying to see where we agree.
quote:
1Jo:2:22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo:2:23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
So if they don't have the Son of God what God do they have?
Even the bible teaches that they are anti Christ and don't have the God of the bible.
If your RCC goes against the bible then you might can say they are right which would make your church Anti Christ!
except that that verse isn't directed at muslims evan.. it's directed at christians, specifically the rise the the gnostic sects that didn't believe that christ came in the flesh. the problem is only one of your creation. so like i said you need to step back and take the time to really understand what you are reading before you fly off the handle... btw did you read the homework for evan thread yet?
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Hello FAL
If you were to tell people you knew me evangelist and all other peole say they know me also the same person and his name is evangelist or C.Moore, but say I come from china have slanted eyes, and I speak Chinesse, and english , and I am 90 years old also I am a athiest and hate christians would that make me the same Evangelist you know here as being an born again american from boston Mass but lives in Germany which I do and who is black and not yellow a evangelist christian believer????
Yes or no FAL??
one love
I answered your question already.
The Muslims believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses. How many pagan gods had prophets named Abraham, Isaac and Moses.
If you can name me one pagan god that fits that bill, then I will have to agree that the Muslims are pagans. However, if you cannot name one pagan god that has three prophets named Abraham, Isaac and Moses, then you must agree that this is the same God and that the problem is that they do not understand God.
Remember there is a very key distinction between Christians and Muslims - they follow a false prophet named Mohammed. Mohammed did not teach the True God, but a false representation of Him. But that does not mean that they believe in a different god. There is no other god, only the God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses.
'Nuff said.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
There is an important distinction to make. We do believe in the same God, but they do not properly understand God. Islam is not a path to God and I am not suggesting that it is. Their religion is not the truth, even if it is based upon a truth = that God exists.
When Islam started, Mohammed was influenced greatly by Christianity and Judaism. He was also influenced by pagans over time and did introduce some very odd things into his religion, but the basis for his religion was our God.
The Jews also worship our God, but they do not fully understand Him either, even though I would put them closer than Islam.
The fundamental flaw to their understanding of God is that they deny the Trinity. Muslims deny that Jesus is the Son of God and even that He died on the Cross.
Their religion is full of heresies and some very warped doctrines - many that oppose everything that God taught us in the scriptures, opposing even the Ten Commandments when it suits their purposes. But that is not the question you asked.
I have stated clearly on this site that Muslims are not Christians. Again that is not the question you asked.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Fifth Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
Do you fully know who God is Evan? If you say yes, you are much farther along than Paul himself:
1Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Here is a man who had met Christ in a way which no one else ever has. The greatest conversion story in Christian history, yet Paul admitted that we only see through a glass or mirror that is dimly lit and when we meet him in His fullness (after death), we shall know Him just as He knows us.
Now even among Christians, there is a difference in how we see God. Hyper-Calvinists see God as totally sovereign to the point that he elects some to be saved and some to be damned. Most Christians believe that God has given us free will to accept Him. Some say you have no more free will to choose or reject God once you are born again and don't need to obey God. Many others say you retain your free will to continue to choose or reject Christ. There are probably hundreds of variations of who exactly God is within Christendom alone.
There are other groups that consider themselves Christian that believe in Jesus only (Oneness Pentacostals) and Father and Son Only (Church of God binitarians). Some say the Father made the Son a sinner and brutally punished Him equivalent to eternity in Hell for all the sins of those who are saved.
Now, I am not going to compare Muslim beliefs with beliefs of Trinitarian Christians. However, if we are going to be separated as sheep and goats on the basis of fully knowing all the attributes of God, then a lot of those who call themselves Christian will also have the same destiny as a Muslim, Jew, JHW or LDS. Romans 2 and other passages gives the possibility that these MAY be saved, but this is God's domain and not ours. Does this mean we shouldn't evangelize those who don't yet accept Christ? God Forbid!
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
There is an important distinction to make. We do believe in the same God, but they do not properly understand God. Islam is not a path to God and I am not suggesting that it is. Their religion is not the truth, even if it is based upon a truth = that God exists.
When Islam started, Mohammed was influenced greatly by Christianity and Judaism. He was also influenced by pagans over time and did introduce some very odd things into his religion, but the basis for his religion was our God.
The Jews also worship our God, but they do not fully understand Him either, even though I would put them closer than Islam.
The fundamental flaw to their understanding of God is that they deny the Trinity. Muslims deny that Jesus is the Son of God and even that He died on the Cross.
Their religion is full of heresies and some very warped doctrines - many that oppose everything that God taught us in the scriptures, opposing even the Ten Commandments when it suits their purposes. But that is not the question you asked.
I have stated clearly on this site that Muslims are not Christians. Again that is not the question you asked.
From the beginning and until now they worship a pagan god and it is to their east where they worship only , and our God is everywhere at the same time , so again a different god.
In Mecca they are still doing the exact same rituals and tradition on the old pagan religion belief and rules and a actions.
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/worship.htm
and
http://fullnessoffaith.blogspot.com/2009/01/do-muslims-worship-same-god-as.html
They worship a female moon god of mecca and jf you study their Islamic annd arabic religion will alway point to this fact and truth of a mon god called al-lat!
They used a one God christian bases to get christians and Jews to join them when they went through mecca as they traded there.
They first had over 500 different gods through the traders which went through mecca, but muhammed seen the one God from Christians and thought this trick or concept of a one god would atract all religion regardless, even though this is not Jehoavh God , as long as it is the one god over the other 500 gods in mecca.
Muhammed followed a pagan concept and past it onto a invented islam!
The truth is Islam worship satan and they stop worshiping the 500 demons as fore, so now they go to the source satan himself the one god of the world, and flesh and the god of religion and pride, and legalism.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Evangelist. To be saved, they must accept Jesus Christ and that they have not done. No one is saved outside the Catholic Church - that is what is affirmed in your source material that you posted.
Mohammed did try to encorporate some pagan gods into his new found religion (by adding and later removing the infamous Satanic Verses), but by that time his own followers rejected that idea. Islam within Mohammed's own lifetime had embraced the One True God that we all know and love.
It is true that Islam as a whole was not welcomed by either Judaism or Christianity, and rightly so, it did and still does retain elements that are pagan in origin, and clearly Mohammed did not have sufficient understanding of the scriptures to get his own writings to correspond fully to what had come before. But this does not mean that there is another god. Only a very poor respresentation of our God.
I have heard stories about Allah being a variant of a name for a pagan god, however, the stories all seem to change = the female moon goddess is the newest version and I had not even heard of that one until now. Because of this, it is hard to know the stories truly began. But this is not helpful.
Mohammed devoted his life to destroying pagan idols which would not make sense if he was trying to incorporate them into his religion. But from what I have read about Mohammed, it seems more likely that he suffered from delusions rather than any desire to promote pagan worship.
His understanding of God was flawed. His scriptures are not inspired and conflict greatly with the original scriptures. He did not have a good grasp of either Christianity nor Judaism and this made his religion to be more of a very warped vision of the two.
Even today, Muslims do not know that their religion is contrary to God's Written Word in the Bible because they have been told that their scriptures are complete and replace all previous scriptures. However, if you ask them who they believe in, they will not say a moon goddess named Allat, but one God who has a number of prophets that we hold in common, and one prophet that we do not.
I find it strange that they will smash idols and yet pray facing Mecca five times a day, no matter where they are in the world. Mecca has no connection with God, it is connected only with Mohammed. Which means that they have essentially turned a man into an idol.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist. To be saved, they must accept Jesus Christ and that they have not done. No one is saved outside the Catholic Church - that is what is affirmed in your source material that you posted.
Mohammed did try to encorporate some pagan gods into his new found religion (by adding and later removing the infamous Satanic Verses), but by that time his own followers rejected that idea. Islam within Mohammed's own lifetime had embraced the One True God that we all know and love.
It is true that Islam as a whole was not welcomed by either Judaism or Christianity, and rightly so, it did and still does retain elements that are pagan in origin, and clearly Mohammed did not have sufficient understanding of the scriptures to get his own writings to correspond fully to what had come before. But this does not mean that there is another god. Only a very poor respresentation of our God.
I have heard stories about Allah being a variant of a name for a pagan god, however, the stories all seem to change = the female moon goddess is the newest version and I had not even heard of that one until now. Because of this, it is hard to know the stories truly began. But this is not helpful.
Mohammed devoted his life to destroying pagan idols which would not make sense if he was trying to incorporate them into his religion. But from what I have read about Mohammed, it seems more likely that he suffered from delusions rather than any desire to promote pagan worship.
His understanding of God was flawed. His scriptures are not inspired and conflict greatly with the original scriptures. He did not have a good grasp of either Christianity nor Judaism and this made his religion to be more of a very warped vision of the two.
Even today, Muslims do not know that their religion is contrary to God's Written Word in the Bible because they have been told that their scriptures are complete and replace all previous scriptures. However, if you ask them who they believe in, they will not say a moon goddess named Allat, but one God who has a number of prophets that we hold in common, and one prophet that we do not.
I find it strange that they will smash idols and yet pray facing Mecca five times a day, no matter where they are in the world. Mecca has no connection with God, it is connected only with Mohammed. Which means that they have essentially turned a man into an idol.
iT was always the ritual to turn to the east or mecca by the old pagan rules which they hold today, and the same sataninic tradition they do in mecca as they worship their al-lat god!
Go a research about muhammed family and history and you will see for your self the false god they have today.
I am glad you at least see the idolism in islam itself.
read through tis link!
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/worship.htm
look at the RCC foot notes for good research about their false god on that link!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 10/28/2009 00:04:55
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Their understanding of God is flawed. I have always maintained that. But we are not going to convert any Muslims if we tell them that their god of Abraham, Isaac and Moses is a different god from our God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses.
They believe that we have the same God. I believe that we do. But their understanding of God has been influenced by some very flawed concepts. Their Qu'ran does not have a correct representation of Salvation History, and is also very flawed. But that does not mean that they are pagans. Just confused.
Their religion puts them in opposition to God's Laws in many areas, but they do not know that.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
-
-
New Member
Contact:
PM
Member since 10/11/2009
I have looked for the thing's that use to be in the bible explained the way i learned it a while back, and they are not there, in that form any more. The explination's are differnt and very humanistic, not of God, more of scientific form, so i think to answer the question as to where the true church is, in my opinion, it is in your heart, not any one denomination, as all have been mixed with world views. All have lost there real meaning, and have compromised in some way ,as to change the meaning of the word of God. So I believe the church is in your own home, and in your head and heart.I am scared of churches as the devil is there, lurking and waiting for his next victim. lacy-1
Freedom!
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 06/26/2002
that sounds like the humanism your accusing the church of lacy. i think the problem isn't that the church has changed but that people have become more pessimistic because of the amount of confusion out there.
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
|
|
Subscribe by Email
RSS