Vatican1 and Vatican 2
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I hope i haven't touched a funny bone, you see i realy don't know the difference between the two but i have herd alot of disputes about this and i only know one thing, Since Vatican 1 is not around there are no mircals happening any more, Did anyone else notice this? lacy-1  Freedom!
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Give an example of the type of miracle you don't see happening anymore that you believed happened more often before Vatican I (or did you mean II?).
"Look on the bright side, if this is the best they've got around here, in six months we'll be running this planet." (Planet of the Apes)
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Originally posted by Astralis
Give an example of the type of miracle you don't see happening anymore that you believed happened more often before Vatican I (or did you mean II?).
 OK, When i was very little I went to a church called ST Anns and many mericals happened there and they had special days of prayer outside of the church with the bishop there and alot of Presberters, ETC and people would stand below (There was alot of stairs to go up) it was a cathedral, and people would try to come up the stairs and they had crouches and wheel chairs and you would see people just drop their crutches and get up out of their wheel chairs and those crutches and wheel chairs are still in the hall as you enter the church. The people donated them for all to see. And many visions were reported alot of times of the Blessed Mother or angels being seen etc. Exorcisum being performed. ETC. And that was when it was Vatican 1 and that's what i ment. POPE Pius the 12th I believe. lacy-1
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Miracles and visions do still happen, and have been happening around the world. The confusion with Vatican II is one of interpretation. Some modernists have taken some of the concepts of Vatican II to mean more than they actually do. However, Vatican II is the continuation of Vatican I, neither contradicts the other and both are valid councils.
The misinterpretations that have led to some confusion within the Church are part and parcel of being in Christ's Kingdom. Smoke will enter the Church and try to bring it down, but it cannot succeed. Jesus promised that.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Miracles and visions do still happen, and have been happening around the world. The confusion with Vatican II is one of interpretation. Some modernists have taken some of the concepts of Vatican II to mean more than they actually do. However, Vatican II is the continuation of Vatican I, neither contradicts the other and both are valid councils.
The misinterpretations that have led to some confusion within the Church are part and parcel of being in Christ's Kingdom. Smoke will enter the Church and try to bring it down, but it cannot succeed. Jesus promised that.
 Faith_at_Large, that was excellent! A friend very late last night was talking to me on the phone about that very verse. I need to know where i can go to read this? That person bought this up on another forum and was dropped for it. What do you suppose that happened? Is it true there are 2 differnt catholic churches? One that goes by Vetican 1 and one the goes by Vatican 2 ? Can this be? lacy-1
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Originally posted by Astralis
Give an example of the type of miracle you don't see happening anymore that you believed happened more often before Vatican I (or did you mean II?).
 What's up? Have you fixed my edit and delete yet? lacy-1
What does this mean to you?
The misinterpretations that have led to some confusion within the Church are part and parcel of being in Christ's Kingdom. Smoke will enter the Church and try to bring it down, but it cannot succeed. Jesus promised that.
lacy-1
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The misinterpretations could be the "miracles" lacy. Your examples remind me of false, charismatic heresy.. It's easy to believe in a God who wants to make all the crippled whole and all the blind able to see... but even Jesus only chose certain individuals who had the necessary faith required to believe in him. I believe that true miracles (that is, unselfish, modest supernatural effects accredited to a faith in Our Lord) are meant to be between oneself and God (and in some or most cases, other holy peoples). God is incapable of exhibiting pride.
"There are water and tears; the water of baptism and the tears of repentance." -St. Ambrose“
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I agree. I'm not seeing that there were more miracles pre-Vatican II than today.
"Look on the bright side, if this is the best they've got around here, in six months we'll be running this planet." (Planet of the Apes)
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It's good to see you to agree, Astralis, because I often resist posting due to the possibility of coming off as a heretic. I have never claimed to speak for the Church, but some things seem too "new agey" to be attributed to the RCC... one of which is "charismatic miracles". I highly respect the Church in her stand against the "miracles" of showmanship and am highly resistant to honor them... but I DO believe in miracles nonetheless. When the blind man was first healed by Jesus, Jesus said to him, "Say nothing to no man, but show yourself unto the priests as a witness unto them" (or something along those lines). I can not believe in a savior who would require one Christian believer to show himself unto another believer (as in the case of charismatic "miracles" exhibited on TBN and the like networks).
"There are water and tears; the water of baptism and the tears of repentance." -St. Ambrose“
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Originally posted by Astralis
I agree. I'm not seeing that there were more miracles pre-Vatican II than today.
 OK Then where are they happening today? I have not herd of any, except for a few asperitions on some walls in Mexico etc. And besides satan at the end day will have full power and will also be able to do miricals to confuse people. lacy-1 OH! Name a few that have happened today!
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Originally posted by lacy-1
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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Miracles and visions do still happen, and have been happening around the world. The confusion with Vatican II is one of interpretation. Some modernists have taken some of the concepts of Vatican II to mean more than they actually do. However, Vatican II is the continuation of Vatican I, neither contradicts the other and both are valid councils.
The misinterpretations that have led to some confusion within the Church are part and parcel of being in Christ's Kingdom. Smoke will enter the Church and try to bring it down, but it cannot succeed. Jesus promised that.
Faith_at_Large, that was excellent! A friend very late last night was talking to me on the phone about that very verse. I need to know where i can go to read this? That person bought this up on another forum and was dropped for it. What do you suppose that happened? Is it true there are 2 differnt catholic churches? One that goes by Vetican 1 and one the goes by Vatican 2 ? Can this be? lacy-1
There is only one Catholic Church; however, there is a sect that derived from the Catholic Church that rejects Vatican II, I think that we may even have a member on this forum that belongs to that group. And FYI, one does not get dropped from this forum for having a dissenting opinion - if that were the case, there are a number of members who would have been dropped a long time ago. Thankfully we are capable of having open and honest discussions here, and if kept with a Christian attitude can be pleasant and educational for all involved.
The problem that arose is that some modernests (not the sect I mentioned) took Vatican II into a direction that was not intended. The modernists opened up a whole can of worms by using Vatican II as an excuse to drop a lot of good things from the Church and pulling in a bunch of garbage. These did not happen universally and is being fixed over time as individual bishops and priests (and seminaries) get called on the carpet for breaking from the Norms of the Church.
An example of a problem area are incidents of having women giving the Homily at Mass. They are not permitted to do this. Other areas have been some pushing for and even ordaining women as priests. This has resulted in some excommunications.
On the other hand, the sect that I mentioned before has decided that the Church went too far and is sticking with pre-Vatican II norms. They demand that the Mass can only be in Latin and reject any changes to the contrary.
Vatican II never forbade the Latin Mass but did allow for the Mass to be said in the vernacular. This is not something new for the Church. In the beginning, the Mass was said in the vernacular and Latin only became the norm when the Catholic Church grew with Roman Empire and Latin was a language that was used in most places for business and travel purposes.
With the rapid growth of the Church and the lack of a printing press to speed up the process of copying Bibles for all the new local churches, and the many new local languages and dialects to deal with, it made sense to have one common language to be used throughout the Church. This was economical and practical. Latin continued to be taught as a routine subject in schools even until the mid-twentieth century.
Vatican II merely recognizes the change in how things are and has allowed us to go back to the vernacular, but has not eliminated Latin as a litergical language.
Given the numerous litergical abuses that popped up after Vatican II (though were not permitted by it), it is not surpising that some got upset and erroneously thought that Vatican II was a false council. However, if one actually reads what is contained in the Vatican II documents, it really is a good council and follows sensibly after all of the other Church Councils.
It is my hope that the sect will rejoin with the rest of the Church and that the abusers heed the Pope and return to the Norms of the Church.
As for the scripture passages your are asking about:
Matthew 16:18 (New King James Version)
18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
The mention of smoke entering the Church as a bad thing comes from external prophecy, however that concept also comes from scriptures.
Luke 17
1"Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
2 Peter 2
"1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."
The Pope has the Keys to the Kingdom and the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Jesus will not allow the Pope to lead us astray, even if the Pope were to lose faith or fall into sin. We have always put our Trust in Jesus Christ who is our High Priest and not in any man. That is why we can trust the Catholic Church.
We are to always stand on guard against false teachings and false prophesy. But Jesus established His Church as our safe zone, His Sheep Fold.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Originally posted by acumenCry
The misinterpretations could be the "miracles" lacy. Your examples remind me of false, charismatic heresy.. It's easy to believe in a God who wants to make all the crippled whole and all the blind able to see... but even Jesus only chose certain individuals who had the necessary faith required to believe in him. I believe that true miracles (that is, unselfish, modest supernatural effects accredited to a faith in Our Lord) are meant to be between oneself and God (and in some or most cases, other holy peoples). God is incapable of exhibiting pride.
acuman you are on my ignore list! I do not like you at all! You have a nerve talking to me like that. telling me That i am false and heresy.God comes to all people not just catholics and you afre turning my mind to be an athiest At least they know who tolove people. where did you get your training???
NNO pride in your faith?? That's why you cannonize people ha! Thank's alot you are all the same! all the same! pompus! BY!
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Lacy-1, Acumencry was making reference to what your examples seemed like. I did not see anything in his post that was as negative as you took it to be.
We have seen many boasts of extraordinary miracles that were truly false and dangerous coming from non-Catholic sources. And there is a danger of similar events happening within the Catholic Church - although we are better equipped to deal with these situations.
Before you came aboard Speroforum, there were a number of threads on this topic - men like Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn and the like were raised up as miracle workers when their so-called "miracles" were proven to be false.
As I said already, miracles still do happen and will continue to happen and I believe that Acumencry believes this as well. And some miracles are even bigger than Acumencry seems to know about, but we Catholics tend not to make global spectacles out of them.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Thanks, FAL. Lacy, I was not intending to seem negative in any way. I do believe in miracles, and the fact that FAL says there are even bigger miracles that I do not seem to know about excites me! I believe tremendously in the power of God and faith in him, but when big spectacles are made of miracles (whether they are true or false), the spotlight tends to be more on the faith of the man (or congregation) who "performs them" rather than on God, who is truly the source and sole proprietor of that power.
"There are water and tears; the water of baptism and the tears of repentance." -St. Ambrose“
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Originally posted by acumenCry
It's good to see you to agree, Astralis, because I often resist posting due to the possibility of coming off as a heretic. I have never claimed to speak for the Church, but some things seem too "new agey" to be attributed to the RCC... one of which is "charismatic miracles". I highly respect the Church in her stand against the "miracles" of showmanship and am highly resistant to honor them... but I DO believe in miracles nonetheless. When the blind man was first healed by Jesus, Jesus said to him, "Say nothing to no man, but show yourself unto the priests as a witness unto them" (or something along those lines). I can not believe in a savior who would require one Christian believer to show himself unto another believer (as in the case of charismatic "miracles" exhibited on TBN and the like networks).
Try this new age movement acumneCry:
http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=d38c5a9f-a0a3-4d40-9a40-54b9a21fc43d
lacy-1
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Ok... what's your point? I am not Catholic, so what makes you think the lack of Christ-centered leadership in a Catholic school would anger me? The Church needs more of my (and your) prayer (in this case, specifically, the SF diocese). Perhaps if people spent more time in prayer and in doing their part to better the body of Christ (both Catholic and non), then our defenses would be stronger against Satan.
Maybe you should spend a little less time searching for the bad in the world and spend a lot more time searching for the good - because that is where you will find Christ's love (which is what we live for).
"There are water and tears; the water of baptism and the tears of repentance." -St. Ambrose“
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