Rapture
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Hi, I read some of the comments about the protestant term rapture, but didn't really find out it's source in scripture, or why, today, it's used so frequently. My faith teaches me at the apocalypse Christians will be caught up, lifted to heaven. I have never seen any scriptural reference to a separate event called rapture, nor the specific word, rapture. I deeply respect all people, and feel a special connection to my protestant brethren. I feel sad that different terms and interpretations get in the way of our uniting daily in adoration and prayer to Our Lord, as people connected Christians. I think the times are scary, as do most people in our country. In the end, when the faithful are lifted up, judgment won't be defined by denomination, but purely on what's in the heart, and how grace was invited to allow the Holy Spirit to use us. The main concern for Christians then, in these times, is to evangelize the faithless, whether atheist or despairing, and those who do not know Jesus Christ.
God Bless,
Jude
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I'm assuming you know the "rapture" scripture..For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, etc....the phrase "caught up"....the greek is rapio...english rapture...im protestant and I believe it...its been discussed in detail on this site quite a few times...we believe the church age ends with the rapture and a period of judgment lasting 7 years begins...Paul said that we are not appointed to the wrath to come..now i guess you could interpret that as hell fire, but we think he's talking about the time of wrath on the earth...there is much to say, but if you would like to consider chapter 2 & 3 in the Revelation, its all about the churches and written to the churches...Chapter 4 says AFTER THIS...I looked and a door was open in heaven...you then see the elders with their crowns..elders has definite church significance...Jesus comes forth from the throne of God and it becomes arguable that he is no longer required at the right hand of God to make intercession, because the church has been removed from earth and is with him resurrected into their glorified bodies in heaven....then in the midst of the celebration a great angel comes forth and cries "who is worthy to open the scroll, and to loose its seals?".....John said that no man was worthy to open the scroll, read or look upon it...please read it for yourself as you see Christ come forth and enter into the business of opening the scroll and beginning a series of judgments on the earth...we can see that Christ enters into a period of releasing various judgments on the Christ rejecting earth, with the first one being the white horse rider...a satanic backed world leader who will perform signs, wonders and miracles...again, there is much to say, but we who believe this dont believe it because we want to escape, scare people, or exercise sensationalism even though escaping the coming hell on earth is a very nice benefit of what we do believe, we believe from many scriptures that there will be a time of judgment lasting approx 7 years and at the end Christ will come with the armies of heaven at armageddon...Read Rev 5:8-10...they are in heaven saying we shall reign on the earth...the belief that Christ will come and that will simply be the end of time does not line up with hundreds of scriptures..if you are interested in other comments ive made about this, you can of course go to "Members" and read my different comments...thunderson
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hi judith.
for myself i've never had a problem with the idea of being caught up but i'm just not sure how that can be interpreted in detail. i did at one time believe more in the idea of the rapture from an evangelical standpoint... people disappearing, planes crashing without pilots, empty clothes. but as a former evangelical, it never seemed to completely jive... there was also belief that the rapture event took place during the trib or after. honestly i don't know what all that means... i mean it could be a completely spiritual event. what really burned me out on the rapture was the sensationalism and fear and escapism associated with it. to many the blessed hope wasn't seeing jesus it was not having to suffer and a lot of end time rapture will focus directly on these kind of fear tactics. especially if it's an audience geared toward conspiracy theories or already hyped up with current events. the first gulf war saw loads of prophetic books out there basically saying "this is it"... but it wasn't. i'm pretty sure just about every president since reagan has been accused of antichrist, and our current even more so.
for myself i just don't care to worry about raptures or end times... i decided a long time ago that i'm just gonna let god take care of the end times and i'm going to "keep my lamp trimmed and burnin."
The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.
Flannery O'Connor
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i like and respect you mike, but on this subject, with you its all about...I....Me....feel....think....once again, its about rightly dividing the Word, not siding up with a church or a personal impression or personal bias....He who now hinders will hinder until HE is taken out of the way, then shall that wicked one be revealed....He is the Holy Spirit...the taken out of the way is the rapture...again, there is much to say...thunderson
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I find merit with both input by Flannery and Thunderson. I don't dispute that we'll be taken up, but I do with other interpretations of rapture. Years ago a newspaper article focused on a group of Christians who went to the desert on a specific day and time due to the pastor's calculation that the rapture would occur. When the event didn't happen, he said he didn't understand how he could have miscalculated. I think, more accurately, he didn't take the advice of Christ who told us not to be concerned about the hour or day.
I learned Revelations was written during a time of great persecution of Christians, hence the mysterious language used to disguise the meaning, for fear of persecution by non-believers. I've read Revelations, and heard conflicting predictions by different protestant scholars. Some of them have seemed far out there in plausibility. A dear protestant friend told me he knew for certain the Anti-Christ would be a Jew, as he was instructed by his pastor. I disapprove of hate-provoking, statements made by speculation. I don't believe the bible is meant to be interpreted by one's opinion.
Jude
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We will be taken up on the last day and the dead shall rise first, and we shall all meet Christ in the air. But there is nothing to suggest that a tribution will occur after this. The Bible suggests otherwise, and Jesus specifically prays for us on this very subject.
John 17:14-15 "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jhn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."
The Bible says in many places that we will suffer tribulation. Further it says that it is the Christian who endures to the end of the tribulations that shall be saved. Therefore, it is those who have endured the tribulations and survived with their faith intact who shall be caught up on the last day.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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Judith, there are plenty of crazy protestants and catholics..i would never argue that....faith at large, he that endures until the end?...we believe that is a tribulation scripture and the reason for the need of enduring is because no one can buy or sell unless they take the mark...remember, the scripture says that he makes war with the saints and is given the power to overcome them.....its not pretty, and its not for the believer..its for those that recognize they have been left behind and then make a commitment, but dying in those days by being executed will be like a blessing compared to the wrath that will come on the earth...people will praise this false Christ and say "who is like him and who can make war with him?"....you cant take the all the scriptures about the coming false messiah in Daniel, Revelation, etc and just throw it away because you cant make it fit....thunderson
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
We will be taken up on the last day and the dead shall rise first, and we shall all meet Christ in the air. But there is nothing to suggest that a tribution will occur after this. The Bible suggests otherwise, and Jesus specifically prays for us on this very subject.
John 17:14-15 "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jhn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."
The Bible says in many places that we will suffer tribulation. Further it says that it is the Christian who endures to the end of the tribulations that shall be saved. Therefore, it is those who have endured the tribulations and survived with their faith intact who shall be caught up on the last day.
agreed. all christians suffer trials and tribulation. all believers must carry their own cross as did the Lord.
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quote:
Originally posted by thunderson
Judith, there are plenty of crazy protestants and catholics..i would never argue that....faith at large, he that endures until the end?...we believe that is a tribulation scripture and the reason for the need of enduring is because no one can buy or sell unless they take the mark...remember, the scripture says that he makes war with the saints and is given the power to overcome them.....its not pretty, and its not for the believer..its for those that recognize they have been left behind and then make a commitment, but dying in those days by being executed will be like a blessing compared to the wrath that will come on the earth...people will praise this false Christ and say "who is like him and who can make war with him?"....you cant take the all the scriptures about the coming false messiah in Daniel, Revelation, etc and just throw it away because you cant make it fit....thunderson
During the Roman Empire, slaves had to carry a mark on their bodies (forehead or hand) that marked them as such. This mark was necessary for them to go off their owner's property to do business - buy or sell.
Jews also had to wear a mark in Germany, the yellow star on their clothing, and were tattooed in concentration camps.
Revelation is written in code - do not force it to be so literal or you will have us all worshipping a literal lamb with seven eyes and seven horns.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
Malachi 1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
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I hear ya, Flannery. A solid, common-sense point of view, but a bit too secular for me. To be in love with God is to accept spiritual mystery. That incorporates many things, including fear and distress.
Thunderson, I get somewhat confused by your writing. I can't reply at this point because I'm not sure of your point of view. Clearly you believe in, and love Jesus Christ, and respect God's commandments.
Faith at Large, we seem to be et Pax with each other.
Jude
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Wow you are the only one who see's the real issue of the world problem of reuniting people together. I believe that those who indure till the end will be saved, not any catching away because they want to escape the inevitable, death by means of sin. Of course only those at the end will escape the pains of death, in the blinking of an eye. What does that tell you about death? With an all powerful God and all forgiving God? it tell's me that no one escapes any thing, so if the (end people die also,) how come people are so afraid of death? Because may be before you die it is hard, not at the second of death, but before it, as you suffer from an illness etc. I don't see why you cannot have fellowship with all kinds of people, I have friends that are Mormon and Catholic and Baptist and Methodist And a jewish temple. I don't let that keep me from liking them and praying with them. Jesus was all thing's to all people. He learned judeism and Egypt beliefs and then taught the way his Father showed him a completly differnt way, his own style and he was perfect in every way. He understood that some did not undrstand and over looked their ignorance, for he knew that, in that day they would not except his teachings, expecially the scribes teachers of the Jews. lacy-1
Freedom!
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Lacy 1, you bring great joy to me. I share your belief in how to respond to our fellows. We're just humans. Life is tough. Jesus never said otherwise. "Pick up your cross, and follow me." So whether the end will be a snap, or accompanied by great suffering, we pray our souls will be in condition to face him - with our sins. I have multiple sclerosis, so I've been introduced to suffering, along with just about the rest of humanity. Do you know anyone without a cross? And I'll admit, in view of the disregard and disrespect shown today, toward God, and His gift of life, I fear all current Christians may face horrors we couldn't imagine.
I place my fears at the foot of the cross.
My recommendation is a devout prayer life, throughout every day. Wake up with prayers on your lips, and end the day with them. Pray with friends, and try to encourage others to turn to God. I've been amazed when I've mentioned God to a stranger in distress, at how their face changes to one of seeing the light. I've dropped pearls in spite of my natural tendency to be invisible, more now, than ever. We can all feel the urgency, can't we? People find Jesus at His beckoning, not ours. We need to assist with encouragement, without taking over the road they'll travel. Jesus is the unifying factor for all Christians. One thing we all know how to do, is pray.
Jude
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The "rapture" in Scripture is the resurrection of the body in the last days, along with taking up of those who are still alive at that time, for the General Judgment.
What is not in Scripture is the idea of a "pre-tribulation rapture", which is what many modern-day Protestants mean when they talk about the Rapture (e.g. Tim LaHaye, the Left Behind Series, etc.). This teaching wasn't present in Christianity until the 19th century here in the US, as a result of the growth of "dispensationalism."
Rather, in a sense we have been living in the tribulation, in the end times, since Christ ascended. Christians are not spared the challenges of the battle between good and evil. Rather, Christ is counting on us to fight the good fight. And, since we know neither the day nor the hour, our focus is on making sure we are ready to meet Christ at all times.
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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Once again, let me say,.....this is not about wanting to escape, its about a PRE-MILLENIAL DOCTRINE....we believe there is a period of divine wrath coming, we are not in it now, but we can see the handwriting on the wall...we believe we are headed toward the end of this age, not the end of time...rapture...7 year period of tribulation...1000 year millenium....END OF TIME, NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH..."Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"...you know that prayer has not been realized, but will when Christ reigns visibly after his return....its true, that we can experience tribulation and all degrees of adversity in this world and we do live in a spiritual war...i also agree that the main menu is service to God and man...but since your question was about the rapture, i will leave you with this, read Revelation chapter 4 & 5....simple question...Is the church shown in heaven before Christ opens the scroll?....the opening of the scroll has been totally downplayed, but let me assure you that is a super major event for the future...notice that heaven celebrates that Christ is worthy to open it..chapter 5:11...and i beheld and i heard the voice of (l)many angels, (2)living creatures, (3)and the elders...and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands and thousands...this of course represents a numberless crowd....THAT IS THE CHURCH...along with the angels and heavenly creatures....the clincher is 5:9,10...you have redeemed us by thy blood out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation....GOT TO BE THE CHURCH...ANGELS ARE SURELY NOT REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD!!....AND YOU HAVE MADE US A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH....again, the millenium after the return...the lamb with the lion, swords into plowshares, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...Enoch said...the Lord comes with TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS to execute judgment on the earth...since the fall of Adam, we have experienced approx 6,000 years of man and his kingdoms and war machines...but...the final 1,000 years will be occupied by the King of kings, Lord of lords....Prince of Peace...what someone believes about the events of the end times is not a heaven or hell issue, but believing that you can endure, work, be faithful and then allowed into heaven for your membership in a church and your works is a deception...we are saved by grace, through faith and not of ourselves, its the gift of God lest any man should boast or take confidence in himself..all the glory to Christ..i attend a church that of course is in a denomination, but i can walk away from that church and denomination and it would have nothing to do with my relationship to Christ..he that the Son sets free is FREE INDEED!
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What will this divine wrath during tribulation look like? Does it resemble millions of people being imprisoned, starved, tortured and killed... cause that's not a new state in the human condition.
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