are catholics going to hell??
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First Member
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Location: Germany
Please state if catholic are going to hell or not, and maybe state why!1. Do you believe that Catholics are going to Hell for belonging to the Catholic Church?2. Do you believe that Catholics are going to Hell for the belief in any one doctrine?3. Do you believe Catholics more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 01/25/2011 16:30:16
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I figure that if the Church Christ started fell off the rails, then He could only have been the son of a carpenter and all of Christianity is a fraud.
Of course, I do believe that Jesus did protect His Church, and that is why all the others that left are not united to each other or truly to Christ - after all, they were most definitely started by men in opposition to those anointed by God.
God did not always anoint perfect people, but at no time was it ever acceptable to go against God's anointed. Only God could do that. And I have seen no evidence that God has taken away the authority of the Church, or the anointing of those who lead her.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by smith
well if catholics are going to hell, than i guess all religions that have roots in the catholic church are going to. Because if the church that Jesus started didnt get it right, how could a church a man started, for example luther, get it right? now what im syaing yo? 
What chruch did Luther started in Germany where I am living?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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That would be the Lutheran church.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Member since 07/10/2003
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
That would be the Lutheran church.
Correct! But he didn't start the christian church , b3cause we know the first Christians where not in Rome but Ethiopia!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Fifth Member
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PM
Member since 01/30/2007
Location: United Kingdom
Not in Jerusalem, then?
Ad Maioram Dei Gloriam
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And when Mark wrote his Gospel account in Rome, there was a thriving Ethiopian church? Or when Peter wrote his Epistle from Rome?
I know that there was one Ethiopian Eunuch who converted to Christ, but I don't know that he had established much of a church before Paul was writing his Epistle to the Roman Church that was already well established.
I know that Christian missionaries did go to Ethiopia. But the Christian Church did not start there. Jesus was never in Ethiopia. Pentecost inaugerated the Church in Jerusalem. And when the Church was driven out of Jerusalem, the headship moved to Rome with Peter.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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There was a thriving Jewish community in Ethiopia at that time.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Member since 02/24/2004
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Please state if catholic are going to hell or not, and maybe state why!
1. Do you believe that Catholics are going to Hell for belonging to the Catholic Church?
2. Do you believe that Catholics are going to Hell for the belief in any one doctrine?
3. Do you believe Catholics can be saved?
4. Do you believe that Catholics must leave the Catholic Church before they can be saved?
Ironically this is a question that no christian would even contemplate asking (along with are you saved) because it places the person asking above God (the absence of humility)
Jam 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.
11 Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?
According to James he who judges his brother not only judges the law but places himself above God and above the law.
Obviously the "all future sins" dogma also falls into this category. ie.e being above the law of God.
And in Corinthians, specifically those who creating divisions, especially those pretending tongues have cast themselves greater than the apostles (i.e. the church) which Paul defends against. And from the text they were also commmitting the same sin of judging, judging the apostles themselves, specifically Paul:
1 Cor 4:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself.
4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.
Note: stewardship is actually household managers (Oikonomos) biblically, the (episcopos), the heirarchy of the church or overseers. So these divisionists (shismatics) are actually judging the episcopos biblically, and rejecting them, considering themselves superior.
The apostles know that however you judge another so God will use the same standard of judgement against them.
Matt.7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.
2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
And in Luke it also goes onto to say that as you condemn another, so will God condemn you. Again, measure for measure. God is love, but God is also just, not blind. Or as Peter said, and how a christian answers:
1 Pet 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.
This is the answer to are you saved, or it's opposite, (breaking the commandment of loving neighbor) who is going to hell for a real believer: to say "I place my trust in the one who judges justly Christ gave us for our example"
And in Romans:
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down)
7 or "Who will descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Contextually he is speaking of Israel in the passage, against pleading ignorance of the gospel, yet it is also appropriate for this thread as it is in fact asking answering the question posed in this thread and righteousness based on faith never asks this question. Preceding this passage he says they are non believers establishing their own righteousness. And so once again applicable to this thread just by asking the question.
Once again showing not only a lack of faith, but lack of the Holy Spirit.
Christians are forbidden from this type of activity as it essentially judges God.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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A true Christian wouldn't if he or she fully understood the Gospel. But there are many Christians out there who have been misled and do believe Catholics are going to Hell for various reasons.
Ironically, many of those same Christians also believe that accepting Jesus once permanently saves them.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Fourth Member
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Member since 01/26/2008
Location: USA
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
That would be the Lutheran church.
Correct! But he didn't start the christian church , b3cause we know the first Christians where not in Rome but Ethiopia!
one love
Luther started the whole Protestant movement in the 16th century. Protestantism is envious that the Catholic Church existed before them from the very first century.
It makes no sense when Protestants try to insert themselves into the first century when they did not even exist & say it was them & then try to explain away how they disappeared until the 16th century or later & then reappeared again in the16th century or later or try to explain how the visible Church in the Bible was them, then became invisible & then now they are visible again.
Evodius a Catholic was the first Bishop of Antioch, and he is credited with being the first person to call the followers of Christ, "Christians", as shown in Acts 11:26. See Eusebius, book 3, chapter 22.
Eusebius Pamphili, Bishop of Cæsarea in Palestine, the "Father of Church History"; b. about 260; d. before 341.
Eusebius, book 3
Through bigotry prejudices false assumptions & false premises Protestants are protesting a catholic church made up by Protestantism that does not actually exist.
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Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
And when Mark wrote his Gospel account in Rome, there was a thriving Ethiopian church? Or when Peter wrote his Epistle from Rome?
I know that there was one Ethiopian Eunuch who converted to Christ, but I don't know that he had established much of a church before Paul was writing his Epistle to the Roman Church that was already well established.
I know that Christian missionaries did go to Ethiopia. But the Christian Church did not start there. Jesus was never in Ethiopia. Pentecost inaugerated the Church in Jerusalem. And when the Church was driven out of Jerusalem, the headship moved to Rome with Peter.
After or before Ethiopians ?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Very likely before since Peter was in Rome in the New Testament, but there is no mention of an Ethiopian Christian Church during that time in the NT.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Here is a brief history of the Church in Ethiopia:
quote:
The Catholic Church has been present in Ethiopia from the beginning of Christianity. The Bible's Acts of the Apostles tells how one of the first converts to Christianity was an Ethiopian, baptized by the Apostle St. Philip (Acts 8:26-40).
However, due to some problems such as shortage of priests, distant location of the country from the Holy see, the closure of the main means of communication with the Christian world by non Christians, and especially the hindrances by a local church privileged by the Government until recent years, the expansion of the Catholic Church in Ethiopia was slow.
Around the year 341 A.D., Saint Frumentius (Abune Salama Kesatie Berhan) was consecrated the first Bishop of Ethiopia by the great Saint Athanasius,Patriarch of Alexandria, who was in union with the Bishop of Rome. Thus the Bishop of Alexandria was the bridge between the Bishop of Rome and the Bishop of Ethiopia.
To read the rest, please check out this site.
The Ethiopian Catholic Church
It does go on to show the eventual separation in the sixth century, and later return.
You can check out Protestant and Orthodox Christian sources and you will find that Christianity did not really flourish until the fourth century, although there were some Christians from the beginning, but only very small in number and not well attended to because of geography and persecutions against Christians.
There was a Jewish Ethiopian community that began long before Christ and remained up to the present day. But they are not Christian.
The scriptures are clear that while there was ONE Ethiopian Christian, there was a whole church in Rome during the New Testament era. Paul wrote his Epistle to the Romans - you quote it often. He was not writing to pagans but to baptized Christians belonging to an established Christian community.
In fact, if you read the introductory paragraphs in Paul's epistles, not only is the Church of Rome already well established, their faith is well known throughout Christendom.
By this time, there is not even a mention as to whether the lone Ethiopian Christian ever made it back to Ethiopia. We only assume that he did.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Nicene
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
Please state if catholic are going to hell or not, and maybe state why!
1. Do you believe that Catholics are going to Hell for belonging to the Catholic Church?
2. Do you believe that Catholics are going to Hell for the belief in any one doctrine?
3. Do you believe Catholics can be saved?
4. Do you believe that Catholics must leave the Catholic Church before they can be saved?
Ironically this is a question that no christian would even contemplate asking (along with are you saved) because it places the person asking above God (the absence of humility)
Jam 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.
11 Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?
According to James he who judges his brother not only judges the law but places himself above God and above the law.
Obviously the "all future sins" dogma also falls into this category. ie.e being above the law of God.
And in Corinthians, specifically those who creating divisions, especially those pretending tongues have cast themselves greater than the apostles (i.e. the church) which Paul defends against. And from the text they were also commmitting the same sin of judging, judging the apostles themselves, specifically Paul:
1 Cor 4:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself.
4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.
Note: stewardship is actually household managers (Oikonomos) biblically, the (episcopos), the heirarchy of the church or overseers. So these divisionists (shismatics) are actually judging the episcopos biblically, and rejecting them, considering themselves superior.
The apostles know that however you judge another so God will use the same standard of judgement against them.
Matt.7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.
2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
And in Luke it also goes onto to say that as you condemn another, so will God condemn you. Again, measure for measure. God is love, but God is also just, not blind. Or as Peter said, and how a christian answers:
1 Pet 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.
This is the answer to are you saved, or it's opposite, (breaking the commandment of loving neighbor) who is going to hell for a real believer: to say "I place my trust in the one who judges justly Christ gave us for our example"
And in Romans:
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down)
7 or "Who will descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Contextually he is speaking of Israel in the passage, against pleading ignorance of the gospel, yet it is also appropriate for this thread as it is in fact asking answering the question posed in this thread and righteousness based on faith never asks this question. Preceding this passage he says they are non believers establishing their own righteousness. And so once again applicable to this thread just by asking the question.
Once again showing not only a lack of faith, but lack of the Holy Spirit.
Christians are forbidden from this type of activity as it essentially judges God.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
Hello Nicence
I did have other questions but FAL said these question might come across better so I copy and pasted those question given to me directly from FAL.
I thinki FAL didn't see it being judgemental!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
A true Christian wouldn't if he or she fully understood the Gospel. But there are many Christians out there who have been misled and do believe Catholics are going to Hell for various reasons.
Ironically, many of those same Christians also believe that accepting Jesus once permanently saves them.
How was the jailer saved, was he confused?ß
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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