Do Catholics really believe this?
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Hello everyone, I came across this article several months ago and it has troubled me a great deal. http://www.zenit.org/article-27623?l=englishThis part in particular I am concerned with: St. John Mary Vianney, besides concretely representing a supreme model of the priesthood, always proclaimed with clarity and incomparable emphasis the dignity of the priesthood and the centrality of the ordained ministry in the heart of the Church. Drawing from his teachings, the Holy Father re-proposed these words of the saint: "O, how great is the priest! … If he realized what he is, he would die. […] God obeys him: He utters a few words and the Lord descends from heaven at his voice, to be contained within a small host."
And again: "Without the Sacrament of Holy Orders, we would not have the Lord. Who put him there in that tabernacle? The priest. Who welcomed your soul at the beginning of your life? The priest. Who feeds your soul and gives it strength for its journey? The priest. Who will prepare it to appear before God, bathing it one last time in the blood of Jesus Christ? The priest, always the priest. And if this soul should happen to die [as a result of sin], who will raise it up, who will restore its calm and peace? Again, the priest… After God, the priest is everything! […] Only in heaven will he fully realize what he is."[2]I am under the impression that ZENIT is a Catholic news source out of Rome. Is this correct? ANd do you really believe the above? Thanks in advance for your responses.
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Fifth Member
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Dunno much about zenit...
The words of John Vianney are a tad overstated for the economy of contempory speech, but, that aside, not only did I not read anything of particular concern,but would happily add my 'amen' to it.
Ad Maioram Dei Gloriam
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Yooh! I went there Christian, and it is from Rome and it is for real i guess. Boy this is arrogant for anyone to say about the Lord.I just subscribed because i want to know for sure. Blessings and Peace! B3
baby3
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quote:
Originally posted by ChristianMomma
Hello everyone,
. John Mary Vianney,
Vianney would preach to protestants that they were doomed to hell and there was no salvation outside of the Roman Church.
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why wouldn't he? protestants often say the same things about catholics... even worse actually.. so what you don't like it if someone thinks your the whore of babylon?
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The point is that the priesthood has an enormous responsibility. And it is important to remember that to whom much is given, much is expected.
It is not that the priests are more powerful or more authoritative than God, but rather that God gave them enormous authority.
The power to bind and loose was previously given to those who sat in Moses Seat, and this power was considerable.
Whatsoever Peter bound on earth was also ratified/bound in Heaven. He spoke WITH God's authority. Of course, I also believe that the Holy Spirit would not allow Peter or any of his successors to bind anything that God would not approve of.
Whatsoever Peter loosed on earth was also loosed in Heaven. That is enormous power. Protestants don't like to hear that, but I am also sure that there were many who objected when they were told that they had to obey those who sat on Moses seat.
Matthew 23:1-3 1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Even though they were not perfect and did things that they should not do, Jesus said that they had to be obeyed regardless. This authority was transferred with the Keys to the Kingdom to Peter, and also to the other apostles.
Jesus also bestowed upon the Apostles the authority to forgiven or retain sins. John 20:22-23. This was and remains enormous authority. Only God can forgive sins, but this authority was granted to men.
Paul exercised this authority "in the person of Christ" (2 Corinthians 2:10). We use this phrase even to this day. In Latin it comes out as "in persona Christi" anytime a priest/presbyter is acting on Christ's behalf. In this way we understand that it is not the priest's personal authority, but Christ's authority in which anything is done.
Even during the Mass, during the consecration which is covered in OP post, the priest is not acting on his own, but in the Person of Christ, who is our High Priest.
I suspect that St. John Vianney may have used stronger words to deal with problems that are not readily seen from our current vantage point; however, I agree that if a priest truly understood what he was actually doing and why, he could not help but be humbled and feel enormously unworthy. I have met a few like this, but many more who don't seem to get it.
Jesus did not give this authority lightly. But it wasn't the first time anything like this had ever been done.
It was commonplace in the OT times, for kings (pharaohs, emperors, etc.) to appoint servants who would wield this level of authority on an earthly scale - Joseph who served under Pharaoh in the OT (remember that story?) wore Pharaoh's ring, and could command almost anything. The Pharaoh still owned both the ring and the ultimate authority in his kingdom, but he trusted Joseph to do what was necessary for the sake of the kingdom.
Jewish Kings used a key or keys that were worn upon the shoulder or hung from the belt for the same purpose as the ring that Pharaohs used (see Isaiah 22:22).
Jesus IS our King. And like all kings, He has a royal court to govern the day to day affairs of the Kingdom.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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In context I see what he was getting at, trying to show that the office of a priest wasn't mundane but was rather a very awesome responsibility.
As we see, St. John Mary points to the greatness of the priest with the privileged reference to the power that he exercises in the sacraments in the name of the Person of Christ. Benedict XVI brought this light, citing still other words of the Curé d'Ars, which refer in particular to the office of celebrating the Holy Eucharist. The Pope writes that the saint "was convinced that the fervor of a priest's life depended entirely upon the Mass: 'The reason why a priest is lax is that he does not pay attention to the Mass! My God, how we ought to pity a priest who celebrates as if he were engaged in something routine!'"[3].
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Fifth Member
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It's probable that the language employed by St John Vianney is shocking to those of the post-Calvin traditions not versed with any depth of understanding of the centrality of the sacraments in the life of the Church (which both Calvin & Luther subscribed to, of course).
Indeed, so complete is this lack of understanding - if a lack can ever really be regarded as complete! - that the presumption that the sacraments are somehow separate from the person of Christ leads to much confusion regarding the position of Christ in the Church.
Of course, the misunderstanding shown may be based on an innocent ignorance - it can be hard to know where to find a simple guide to the relevant theology. I guess a 'theology for dummies' is called for, for those who genuinely seek answers... Wouldnt mind a copy for myself, come to that!
Ad Maioram Dei Gloriam
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"God obeys him: He utters a few words and the Lord descends from heaven at his voice, to be contained within a small host."
So, none of you have a problem with the assertion that God obeys a Catholic priest?
None of you have a problem with the assertion that after a Catholic priest utters a few words, Christ comes down to be contained within a small host?
Do you honestly believe that Peter (or any of the apostles) actually believe that they could order Jesus down from Heaven and command Him into a cracker or piece of bread so that He could be sacraficed again and again and again? Scripture teaches us that Christ died ONCE.
Who is in control here?
"Without the Sacrament of Holy Orders, we would not have the Lord."
So you believe that those in this world who are not under a Catholic priest and who do not receive your communion do not have the Lord?
"Who put him there in that tabernacle? The priest."
No one puts God anywhere. Do you think that in OT times God was put anywhere by His people?
"Who welcomed your soul at the beginning of your life? The priest."
You are right The Priest did welcome me, but not a catholic priest.
"Who feeds your soul and gives it strength for its journey? The priest."
Again, The Priest (which, by the way, is Jesus Christ) feeds my soul and gives it strength for its journey.
John 6:35 (New American Standard Bible)
35Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
"Who will prepare it to appear before God, bathing it one last time in the blood of Jesus Christ? The priest, always the priest."
Jesus Christ prepared me to appear before God by bathing me in His blood that He shed ONCE at the cross. No need to rely on a middle man.
"And if this soul should happen to die [as a result of sin], who will raise it up, who will restore its calm and peace? Again, the priest…"
How in the world does a Catholic priest raise up a sould and restore it? What a marvelous boast!
This whole article drips of arrogance. I am shocked that no one sees a problem here and it even got an 'amen.'
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Fifth Member
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yep, fairly predictable response there, CM! 
Ad Maioram Dei Gloriam
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quote:
Originally posted by SolaChristo
quote:
Originally posted by ChristianMomma
Hello everyone,
. John Mary Vianney,
Vianney would preach to protestants that they were doomed to hell and there was no salvation outside of the Roman Church.
I like him more and more! 
There is no salvation outside of Christ - and since the Church is the body of Christ, and is his sacrament on earth, then there can be no salvation outside the Church.
Many people choose to remain outside the Church in favour of some recently invented religion, based, so they mistakenly believe, upon the only words of Christ, as found in Scripture. Unfortunately, this is a falsehood, completely alien to the early Church and to the Church of many centuries later.
While the Scripture certainly contain precious gems, it is the organic workings of the Holy Spirit in & through the Community of Christ that is the prime authority. Without this, there would be no scripture, there would be no Church.
The first Pentecost was a once and for all infusion of the Holy Spirit to the body of the faithful, and has never been retracted. Those who deny this are unpardonable!
Ad Maioram Dei Gloriam
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Christian Momma, the words seem strong, but the reason why Catholics don't get more worked up over it is because we understand that the priest would have no power at all if God had not granted it to him.
And it was Jesus' own choice to become our Eucharist, just as it was His choice to give the Roman soldiers the power to contain Him upon the cross.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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I agree that words could be very upsetting to a non-Catholic who may think that the Catholics view the priest as truly having power to force God to do what He would not - this is not the case.
I get far more worried about those Christians who believe that the evidence of their being right with God comes from their ability to perform miracles. Too often, the power that presumably comes from God is seen as their own. They describe themselves as "walking in power".
Christ did not equate equality with God as something to be exploited, even though He truly was equal. Yet, there are many Christians who believe that they are equal to Christ in that they believe that they shall do greater things than Christ, in every respect.
They walk in power, seeking after their own glory. This bothers me far more.
The priest only has the power that God gave Him. And the authority that God gave him. But, for Catholics, Jesus is our High Priest. All authority and power begins with God.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Fifth Member
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The other thing to remember is that all power / authority belonging to the priest is simply the power and authority of a servant. Yes, this can be forgotten, but a reminder is in the title 'servant of the servants of God' used by the pope, which cascades down the ordained ministry.
Just as Jesus washed the feet of his followers, so the priest should be lowly and humble. And, yes again, that can and is forgotten, but that does not invalidate the truth of it.
Ad Maioram Dei Gloriam
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You know i really think it makes sence in a way but i never ever herd of anyone raising anyone from the dead in the last 2,000 years has anyone else?Jesus said you have to fast and pray for this as well as expelling evil spirits out of people.e are b lessed to do all that he did and greater things but who has done this in these days and why not? i GUESS WE HAVE LITTLE FAITH ALLOT LESS THEN THEY HAD BACK THEN.That tells me we are not as close to God as we should be. B3 Matthew 10 speaks about his giving them power to raise the dead if they were truly part of his kigdom.B3
baby3
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Baby3, there have been many great miracles over the centuries.
Raising the dead is not always a good thing and should only be done out of necessity, not just because the living miss the dead, or to put on a show.
All these things have been done in the Catholic Church, right up to the present time. But this is not something to brag about. Or to profit from.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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