The meaning of a christian been justified, holy !

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

No. James was making a point that you keep missing.

You can't just read a verse here and a verse there and expect to understand.

If anyone says that they have no sin, that person is a liar and has no part in Christ.

That is what the Bible says. The Good News is not that we are no longer sinners, but rather that we can overcome with Christ.

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Originally posted by mikejuli

Common Evan! It's not rocket science. If you really claim to be bible based then stop trying to tweak and mis interpret what it clearly stated. All your doing is presenting a philosophy, and a very shallow one at that. It has nothing to do with the gospel, but is really opposed to the gospel when you stop to think about it. Jesus died to set us free from sin, not to give us licence. I suggest that you read what Paul says a little closer and also read those passages where he confronts sin head on. Remember you still reap what you sow.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Evangelist, I thought about it and you are correct. If we keep the whole law but offend in one point, we are a transgressor of the Law.

That is a fact that cannot and should not ever be ignored and dancing around it does not change it.

So lets move on to the next issue. This is a rock solid fact of the scriptures. And NOTHING in the New Covenant changes this fact.

Next fact that cannot be ignored or overlooked.


Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

When we come to faith in Christ and become "born again", all sins committed prior to that point are remitted. Done-deal, forgotten, never to be remembered. All sins that were PREVIOUSLY committed, PRIOR to coming to Christ, BEFORE being born again.

That is a rock-solid fact that no amount of tinkering with the scriptures can get around.

Past sins are covered. Future sins are NOT covered when we are born again.

James was writing to born again believers. So was Paul. Not one of the Epistles in the Bible was ever written to an unbeliever.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Both of those passages are 100% true. There is no escaping that fact.

How can you say that they are not true????

There are no scriptures that alter them in any way or contradict them.

Just because you don't like what is in the Bible, does not make it any less true. And you can't just go making up your own doctrines to get around the TRUTH that is in the scriptures.

You have to accept both of these verses without exception. If you can do that, I will introduce you to the real Good News.

The Bible isn't bad news unless you are trapped in your sins. But Jesus came to free us from the bondage of sin, and it isn't too late for any of us.

You are saying that the Bible is wrong. That is never a good idea. I am saying that you are mistaken. The Bible is right and there is lots of wonderful news in there.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Both of those passages are 100% true. There is no escaping that fact.

How can you say that they are not true????

There are no scriptures that alter them in any way or contradict them.

Just because you don't like what is in the Bible, does not make it any less true. And you can't just go making up your own doctrines to get around the TRUTH that is in the scriptures.

You have to accept both of these verses without exception. If you can do that, I will introduce you to the real Good News.

The Bible isn't bad news unless you are trapped in your sins. But Jesus came to free us from the bondage of sin, and it isn't too late for any of us.

You are saying that the Bible is wrong. That is never a good idea. I am saying that you are mistaken. The Bible is right and there is lots of wonderful news in there.

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Originally posted by mikejuli

Are you saying sola scriptura is wrong Evan? So funny when evangelicals pull that stunt.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Evangelist, I am glad to hear you admit that Sola Scriptura is wrong because it can be misinterpreted. But I don't need the Pope to read the plain text of scripture to me. Those passages are not complicated.

You repeatedly missed the point of James 2, so the only choice I have is to start where you are and try to bring you up to speed.

God's wrath is only for those who deserve it.

Those that belong to Christ do not have to fear this, but those that only want the prize but not the work are not true beleivers.

The reason that Peter warns that the wrath of God will be worse for those who have been born again but returned to sin is not because he is preaching some bad news gospel.

The reason why the penalty is so much greater for believers than for unbelievers, is that we have a significant advantage over the unbelievers. We have been given extraordinary gifts.

You hear "gifts" and all you can think of are earthly things like money and physical health, and even superhuman gifts like tongues and casting out demons.

We received much more than that. These "externals" are nothing compared to the true gifts. They are just the little extras, the frosting. Not the cake.

It is very possible to be rich and saintly, but also extremely difficult. Jesus said it was harder for a rich man to enter Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Money is a terrible stumbling block and had led to the damnation of many. Not for nothing is money called the root of all evil.

Speaking in tongues and healing the sick and casting out demons are wonderful, but not if they delude the person into thinking that they are more highly favoured than others, and use those gifts for their own glory rather than in the service of Christ's Church.

Jesus Christ died for our sins. He paid the debt for the whole world. But this is just the beginning, not the end. The debt to sin is paid so that we no longer have to be in bondage to sin. And those who accept Christ are freed from this bondage.

You keep acting like you are a slave to sin. You keep saying that it is impossible to obey God. And yet, this is Christ's gift to us.

Not only did Christ pay out debt to sin, but when we accept Christ and are baptized into Him, we receive the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. THE Holy Spirit bears witness with our own spirit. The unbelievers do not have this. We do.

If that were not enough, Jesus established a Church on earth, not a building, but a real presence with many parts and roles - we are the Body of Christ. His arms and legs on earth. The Church ensures that the scriptures remain true, and the doctrines are formed and taught as God wanted them. This is made possible through the power of the Holy Spirit that resides in the Church, and in all of her members.

Not only do we have all of this, but there is more. Jesus ensured that even if we are weak and do not transform as quickly as others, we have additional helps through the sacraments that HE ordained, and through each other. We are able to help each other overcome stumbling blocks. To pray for one another and to warn one another.

Our Church also has overseers and presbyters to serve us and administer God's rememdies to us - the Liturgy of the Word and the Eucharist. Powerful weapons against sin and Satan.

You may laugh if you like, but I bet none of Satan's minions are trying to steal your bread and grape juice. They try often in Catholic Churches, and we have had to take measures to prevent Satanists from stealing the Eucharist for blasphemous purposes.

Little do they know that they put themselves at risk when they do this. But the Eucharist also does wonderful things too - a great many miracles have been worked through the Eucharist.

The unbelievers have none of these things, so if they stumble, God may be a little more understanding. And if they at least manage to obey that which God wrote upon our hearts, perhaps they may find mercy on the Last Day when Christ is revealed to them.

But for the one who has been born again, has received the Holy Spirit into his or her own body, has the great spiritual wealth of the Church to nourish his or her soul and provide guidance and strength in numbers within the safety of Christ's own Sheep Fold, what excuse that such a one have if they should turn back towards the master that they had been released from?

Paul spent a lot of time warning born again Christians to not be complacent and to refrain from sin and to repent from sins committed. This was very important to Paul, and to me.

Paul said two things that you really need to meditate on.

1. Godly sorrow brings us to repentence. Not just feeling bad about it, but actual honest repentance. 2 Corinthians 7:10.

and,

2. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling - this is not a bad thing. This is a good thing. Philippians 2:12-16.

This is not our doing. This is GOD at work in us.

Because of what Christ did, we were not only made righteous at the moment we were born again, but we can continue to be righteous through Him and In Him.

This is not a legal fiction, this is reality. And it is a wonderful reality once you get past your obsession with sin.

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Originally posted by Faith_at_Large

Note that David and Abraham were both from the OT, under the OT covenant. These are perfect examples that show that the New Covenant is not different from the Old Covenant, but rather the perfection of it.

Note also what James has to say about Abraham. Abraham did not have the Mosaic Law, but he did DO the Will of the Father. He did not just believe God with mental assent, he was prepared to sacrifice his only son, even had Isaac tied down to the altar of sacrifice.

Yup, he was not righteous because of circumcision, which God also commanded of him, but because he obeyed always, without question.

As for David, well he was a sinner, but no one repented like David. David never took God for granted. Yes, David was righteous, not because he accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour, but because he truly embraced God as his Lord and Master, worthy of obedience and worship. And when he went wrong, God called him back, and David truly repented of his sins.

If you were to follow either of their examples, you would be righteous too.

It is important to understand what Paul is referring to here with respect to works. Obeying God is not what Paul had in mind. This is not a work of the Law. Abraham and David were not righteous on account of their being circumcised. David was not righteous because he offered up the right amount and kind of bulls and lambs for sacrifice.

No one in the OT was righteous because they what was proscribed in the ceremonial laws. These were acts of worship, works of law, all good things, but not what makes us righteous - then or now.

Nothing in that passage says that sin is not an issue.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. AMEN. But the other passages in the Bible show us how that comes to be.

Repentance, Repentance, REPENTANCE.

For every verse you provide that you think means that sin is no longer an issue, I can provide additional verses that show the circumstances that make that true. You can't go pitting the verses against one another.

The Bible is not the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, the order of writing matters , because newer Ayats (verses) superseded older Ayats if there is any contradiction.

The Bible does not supersede itself, where changes occur, they are explained and not left to us to guess that if A is older than B then B must be the correct version. If B is different, then there will be an explanation as to the change, OR, someone has merely misinterpreted something.

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