What is meant by saying we are made righteous?
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I think this might opem many truth and solve alot of issues and misunderstanding about the good gospel and also who we are in Christ Jesus and about , the do's and don'Ts some say we have to do to get on God side , or get saved, redeemed, justified and holy! To start I think we know no righteous person will go to hell! No righteous person also need to go to another pit stop in a limbo or purgatory! Sin would also not be a issue to an righteous person ! So please my Catholic friend tell me your understanding of what is a righteous person and how do they become righteous and when do they become righteous, also how long please???? Please let it be along the biblical lines according to scriptures like: Ro:5:17: For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Ro:5:18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.Ro:5:20: Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Ro:5:21: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.Ro:3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: I want to see how Catholic put righteousness into correct contexts , sciptures upon scriptures and correct biblica concepts of interpretations of scriptures! Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Ro:10:5: For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Ro:10:6: But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Ro:10:7: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) Ro:10:8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 1Co:1:30: But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:1Co:1:31: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Ph'p:3:8: Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Ph'p:3:9: And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:Righteousness is a gift that comes from the Lord to those who accept what Jesus has done for them by faith (Rom. 5:17-18). The gift of salvation produces a changed heart that, in turn, changes our actions. Actions cannot change our hearts. It's the heart of man that God looks upon (1 Sam. 16:7), and we must be righteous in our hearts to truly worship God (John 4:24). The mistake of thinking that doing right makes us right is the same error the Pharisees made. Religion has always preached that if we clean up our actions, our hearts will become clean too. Jesus taught just the opposite (Matt. 23:25-26). It's through a changed heart that our actions change. The heart is the issue. Actions are only an indication of what is in our hearts. Actions are the fruit the heart produces. Modern-day Christianity often puts the emphasis on actions instead of issues of the heart. This is reflected in Christians' excessive efforts to legislate change in people's actions instead of changing their hearts by the preaching of the Gospel. It's the Gospel that contains the power of God, not political action groups (Rom. 1:16). Laws only affect actions. The Gospel changes hearts. Once hearts are changed, actions change. Contrary to popular belief, Christianity does not promote receiving justice from the Lord. Praise God for that! The Lord has a much better plan. We get what we believe. Someone might say, "That's not fair. No one can compete with God's righteousness." That's exactly right! However, God's righteousness is the standard by which everyone must be measured. So then, how can anyone be saved? The answer is that no one can be saved, if they are trusting in their own righteousness. We all must have a righteousness that exceeds anything we could ever produce through our own effort. That's where Jesus enters.
Jesus was in right relationship with God as no one else can be. He is the Son of God. He is God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16). He is holy and pure and without sin, yet He became sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21), through no wrongdoing on His part. He took our sin in His own body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Is. 53:4-5).
In return for Jesus taking our sin, those who put their faith in Him get His righteousness instead of their own. It's not our actions that make us acceptable to the Father. It's our trust in Jesus that imparts the righteousness of Jesus into our born-again spirits that makes us in right standing with God.
Those who don't understand this righteousness, which comes from God as a gift, become frustrated trying to establish their own righteousness through good works (Rom. 10:3). It won't work. It's an all or nothing situation (Rom. 11:6). We must trust completely in what Jesus did for us to obtain right relationship with God. Any trust in our own goodness will void the atonement Christ made for us (Gal. 5:4).Let start with this: and lets give our view, opinions, and when you have an open heart, the Holy Spirit will give you a true revelation knowledge on the true righteousness of Christ Jesus given as a gift and not a performance external carnal self-righteousness before men, and religions! Thank you so very much for any responces! one love Evangelist www.revivaldisco.comhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrhY0-6LPYIpart 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19nOf9AIpdk&feature=relatedShalom I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 11/27/2011 16:05:31
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I want to go through the whole thing before I give a complete response, but I would point out that a righteous person would not be committing sins, so of course sin would not be an issue for that person.
For those of us who still sin on occasion, we need to repent so that we can be cleansed of all unrighteousness.
The fact that the Bible says we will be cleansed of all unrighteousness means that we were not righteous when we sinned and needed to repent. 1 John 1:9 was written to born again believers.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
I think this might opem many truth and solve alot of issues and misunderstanding about the good gospel and also who we are in Christ Jesus and about , the do's and don'Ts some say we have to do to get on God side , or get saved, redeemed, justified and holy!
To start I think we know no righteous person will go to hell!
No righteous person also need to go to another pit stop in a limbo or purgatory!
Sin would also not be a issue to an righteous person !
the post is too long to go all the way through so i'll just point out a few issues i have.. first i would say that there are no dos and don't you can do to get on Gods side. it not about us getting on his side but rather about god being for us.. as such the dos and dont's, (at least the real ones) are all expected parts of having a relationship with him. he comes with grace we respond with faith evidenced with works. (and no that isn't the levitical law evan... don't be so dull)
no person made righteous by christ will go to hell, but purgatory isn't hell evan. as a matter of fact the process of purgatory is a process of being made righteous.. or the act of being made righteous by god occurs by purging us of our sins as well as the effects of sin. sin, of course wouldn't be a problem for a righteous man, which is how we know there is no one who is righteous... i have yet to meet that person who is without sin.. you included. so clearly some work still needs to be done.
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So please my Catholic friend tell me your understanding of what is a righteous person and how do they become righteous and when do they become righteous, also how long please????
i would like you to show me a righteous man first. really evan, i don't see why your even bringing this up with us catholics. why aren't you asking this of g4? he is the one coming up with all these taboos about smoking and swearing or drinking a beer and sending us catholics to hell. that is your performance based religion... ours is sacramental and that means that the work we do is work prepared by christ for us to partake in.. we cannot boast like g4 or prance around like some pentacostal preacher...
i would like to note something here,, and that is your verse from philemon.. (i haven't really looked beyond the others yet)
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Ph'p:3:8: Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Ph'p:3:9: And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
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but you stop right there as if that is all that is said.. but it isn't. when you read further you find that paul is saying the exact opposite of what you preach.
10 That I may know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings: being made conformable to his death, 11 if by any means I may attain to the resurrection which is from the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, or were already perfect: but I follow after, if I may by any means apprehend, wherein I am also apprehended by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended. But one thing I do: Forgetting the things that are behind and stretching forth myself to those that are before, 14 I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything you be otherwise minded, this also God will reveal to you, 16 nevertheless, whereunto we have come, that we be of the same mind, let us also continue in the same rule. 17 Be followers of me, brethren: and observe them who walk so as you have our model. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often (and now tell you weeping) that they are enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction: whose God is their belly: and whose glory is in their shame: who mind earthly things. 20 But our conversation is in heaven: from whence also we look for the Saviour, our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will reform the body of our lowness, made like to the body of his glory, according to the operation whereby also he is able to subdue all things unto himself.
completely differnt story when you read it all evan. pauls idea of righteousness isn't that he is free from action, from rules, from correction, from reform or that he has "attained"...
seriously i don't think any conversation with you will go anywhere because you don't truly grasp the truth about most of the terms you use. your confused between works of faith and the works of the law and as such you seem to categorize anything as a work. that makes jesus a preacher of works and it makes paul a preacher of works as well. your idea of righteousness i fear is going to take a similar flop as you turn true righteousness into another excuse to sin and not confess.  rise up o man of god!
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
I think this might opem many truth and solve alot of issues and misunderstanding about the good gospel and also who we are in Christ Jesus and about , the do's and don'Ts some say we have to do to get on God side , or get saved, redeemed, justified and holy!
Well, as a Catholic, I have always known that there is nothing we can do on our own to get on God's side, or get saved, redeemed, justified or holy. If I thought that I could do any of this on my own, I would be a heretic to my Church.
To start I think we know no righteous person will go to hell!
No righteous person also need to go to another pit stop in a limbo or purgatory!
Amen, brother, preach that CATHOLIC Gospel.
Sin would also not be a issue to an righteous person !
Amen, brother, preach that CATHOLIC Gospel.
So please my Catholic friend tell me your understanding of what is a righteous person and how do they become righteous and when do they become righteous, also how long please????
Certainly. According to the BIBLE, this is an ongoing process. We are made righteous at baptism (when we are born again), and continue to be made righteous throughout our lives. Those that renewed right away and stay free from sin do not need this, but Jesus knew that most of us might slip on occasion, so HE gave us the means to be cleansed of all unrighteousness as often as we needed it (1 John 1:9).
1 John 1:9 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
John was writing to born again believers. If their having been made righteous was a permanent condition that could not be undone, then this verse would be pretty stupid - why would they need to be cleansed of all unrighteousness, if they were already righteous?
The answer is simple. They were righteous until they resisted God's GRACE and committed sin. But John provides the remedy. Hallelujah, all is not lost, we can repent of our sins and be reconciled to Christ again.
Please let it be along the biblical lines according to scriptures like:
Ro:5:17: For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Yup, we did receive an abundance of Grace, sufficient to overcome sin and be righteous. No excuse to commit sin. God knows how to deliver the Godly from temptation, but He will allow the ungodly to sink if they refuse His lifeline. 2 Peter 2:9
Ro:5:18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
FREE. I love it. The penalty for sin is death, but Jesus paid that penalty for us. We did not deserve it, we did not ask for it, we did nothing to merit it, but HE did it anyway out of love for us.
Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.Ro:5:20: Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Ro:5:21: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Love that Grace. Grace is not a get out of Hell free card. Grace is gift that gives us strength to overcome sin and endure.
Ro:3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
In that instance, Paul is quoting something very specific. The "none righteous" is not a general description of everyone, but of a particular group from the OT that were wicked. The Bible identifies numerous people who were righteous.
I want to see how Catholic put righteousness into correct contexts , sciptures upon scriptures and correct biblica concepts of interpretations of scriptures!
I always do. The Bible is really not all that difficult until you start having other people trying to inject their own teachings into it.
Remember, I grew up with almost zero Catholic teaching. The horrific experiment perpetrated on my generation was intended to wipe traditional Catholic influence from the youth so that they would be more amenable to compromise in the interest of false ecumenism.
My parents trusted the system to teach me, assuming that the system would do a better job. WRONG.
Everything I learned until recently, was from the King James Bible NT and Psalms that I was given in my youth. I read that until the paper was almost see-through from the oil from my fingertips.
But a key difference between you and I is that I did not have Protestant traditions impressed upon me either. All I had was the Word. This did not mean that I got everything perfectly, but I was pleased with how close I got it when I ended up in a more orthodox Parish and made a decision to find out what the Catholic Church actually taught.
Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
True. God4Me is a perfect example of this.
Ro:10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro:10:5: For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Amen, we are no longer under Mosaic Law. No more sacrificing pigeons and bulls. No more cutting the foreskins off our poor sons.
Ro:10:6: But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Ro:10:7: Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Ro:10:8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Amen. Those who believe in Christ are those who keep HIS commandments, not Moses' ordinances. There is no more need for paper laws, God's Laws are written upon our hearts, and Jesus gave us the easy Way to keep them - Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your mind and your strength; and Love your neighbour as yourself. Easy to remember. And no more loopholes or lawyers needed.
1Co:1:30: But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:1Co:1:31: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Amen. Jesus is wisdom, righteousness and sanctification and the cause of our Redemption. Let us all glory in the Lord.
But I am not sure you fully understand what was written there. I think you have been reading into the passage again rather than just letting the passage speak for itself.
Ph'p:3:8: Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Amen, no price is too great to win Christ. No amount of suffering on this earth is too great. No amount of self-denial is too much. Christ is worth everything and all things.
Ph'p:3:9: And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Amen.
Righteousness is a gift that comes from the Lord to those who accept what Jesus has done for them by faith (Rom. 5:17-18). The gift of salvation produces a changed heart that, in turn, changes our actions. Actions cannot change our hearts. It's the heart of man that God looks upon (1 Sam. 16:7), and we must be righteous in our hearts to truly worship God (John 4:24).
Amen. Yes. AMEN. A changed heart. We must be righteous in our hearts to truly worship God, and Jesus gives us that. Those who have allowed their hearts to be changed do not seek to sin. One cannot have sin on their heart and still be righteous.
The mistake of thinking that doing right makes us right is the same error the Pharisees made.
Nope. The mistake that they made was trying to make loopholes. They manipulated the Law to their own ends, trying to gain power and glory for themselves at the expense of the Law.
God gave them the Law so don't go making the foolish mistake of thinking that doing what God says is wrong. And please do not make the even bigger mistake of teaching others this nonsense.
Religion has always preached that if we clean up our actions, our hearts will become clean too. Jesus taught just the opposite (Matt. 23:25-26). It's through a changed heart that our actions change. The heart is the issue. Actions are only an indication of what is in our hearts. Actions are the fruit the heart produces.
A proper disposition helps. There is an easy way to tell IF your heart has been changed or not. Is it full of love for your neighbour or lust for your neighbour's wife (or any other sin). If the former, you heart has been changed. If the latter, then it still needs some work.
This is something God does in us, but we still have to cooperate.
If we persist in sin, then we have returned to the mire and are worse off then if we had never been born again. 2 Peter 2:19-22
But I am thrilled to see that you have stopped talking about swapped out spirits.
Modern-day Christianity often puts the emphasis on actions instead of issues of the heart. This is reflected in Christians' excessive efforts to legislate change in people's actions instead of changing their hearts by the preaching of the Gospel. It's the Gospel that contains the power of God, not political action groups (Rom. 1:16). Laws only affect actions. The Gospel changes hearts. Once hearts are changed, actions change.
Yes, a change of heart is far more important than legislation. It is actually obnoxious when some Christians start making up laws to impose on others in order to judge them - no smoking, no drinking, no using vulgar language. Just like the Pharisees of old.
But I disagree with your objection to political action groups. These are the fruit of changed hearts.
Abortion is being spread through the world, even to the point of being forced. This is a call to action. Those that think that this should be ignored because it doesn't matter, do not have a full grasp of the Bible.
WE ARE the Body of Christ. WE ARE the hands and feet of Christ to do HIS WORK on this world. That is the real power that God wants us to walk in.
Contrary to popular belief, Christianity does not promote receiving justice from the Lord. Praise God for that! The Lord has a much better plan. We get what we believe.
Not sure you are trying to say there.
But God hears the cries of the wronged, especially widows and orphans. Christians are called to be His hands and feet to ensure that those in need are cared for by those who have what they need.
And we get what is true and just, whether or not we believe it.
Someone might say, "That's not fair. No one can compete with God's righteousness." That's exactly right! However, God's righteousness is the standard by which everyone must be measured. So then, how can anyone be saved? The answer is that no one can be saved, if they are trusting in their own righteousness. We all must have a righteousness that exceeds anything we could ever produce through our own effort. That's where Jesus enters.
Jesus was in right relationship with God as no one else can be. He is the Son of God. He is God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16). He is holy and pure and without sin, yet He became sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21), through no wrongdoing on His part. He took our sin in His own body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Is. 53:4-5).
In return for Jesus taking our sin, those who put their faith in Him get His righteousness instead of their own. It's not our actions that make us acceptable to the Father. It's our trust in Jesus that imparts the righteousness of Jesus into our born-again spirits that makes us in right standing with God.
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Up to a point. You have started to insert your own traditions onto the scriptures again. Jesus paid for our sin. He paid our debt. In that respect, He took our place.
And He did make us acceptable to God
Ephesians 1:6-7 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
But, be careful to not impose extra-Biblical ideas onto that verse. It must be read in light of the rest of the scriptures. Not in isolation.
Jesus did this, but we have to walk in it. Stop trying to make this your own doing. Jesus gave us the grace to do this. The purpose of the scriptures IS to prepare us for all good works.
2 Timothy 3:15-17 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
You want everyone to have the Bible as their final authority, but you forgot why God gave us the Bible in the first place.
Those who don't understand this righteousness, which comes from God as a gift, become frustrated trying to establish their own righteousness through good works (Rom. 10:3). It won't work. It's an all or nothing situation (Rom. 11:6). We must trust completely in what Jesus did for us to obtain right relationship with God. Any trust in our own goodness will void the atonement Christ made for us (Gal. 5:4).
You tread dangerous ground. Paul was referring to those who though that they needed to keep the Old Covenant laws in order to be saved. In particular, he specifically mentioned circumcision. in that passage. You ripped out a verse from its proper context and tried to force it to mean something it does not.
A better, and more accurate way to put it is this. We do not have a works based salvation. This is not a case of being "good enough" because we can't be. God does not ask that we repay an impossible debt - Jesus did that for us, free and unmerited.
God does not ask more than we can do or give.
What Jesus did for us is to pay that impossible debt and gave us the Grace to enable us to become what God wants of us.
Grace is a gift from God. It moves us to do what is right. This is not our doing, it is God working in us. Jesus also gave us the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to guide us and help us to be all that God wants us to be. He also gave us the scriptures and HE established His Church to help us and guide us in the Way of righteousness.
And, so long as we are doing our best, we don't have to worry about not being good enough - Jesus is there for us, making up what we lack. But we still have to cooperate. That is our part.
Jesus does not ask much. But this idea that He asks nothing is a mistake.
Let start with this: and lets give our view, opinions, and when you have an open heart, the Holy Spirit will give you a true revelation knowledge on the true righteousness of Christ Jesus given as a gift and not a performance external carnal self-righteousness before men, and religions!
Thank you so very much for any responces!
one love
Evangelist
www.revivaldisco.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrhY0-6LPYI
part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19nOf9AIpdk&feature=related
Shalom
Jesus made it possible for us to be all that God wanted for us.
He paid our debt to sin so that we could be free from sin and live in the Way of Righteousness.
He strenghtens us so that we can overcome.
2 Peter 2:9-10 9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
If we put our trust in Christ, we cannot go wrong. But to tell anyone that this means we are free to sin, that goes against everything that the Bible said.
Grace helps us to avoid sin. And the Holy Spirit warns us and brings us to repentance if we do sin. Its all good, unless we resist God.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 11/27/2011 22:35:34
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First of all I want to thank all of you who respond to this thread and you all did a great job in giving your views and opinions and beliefs!
I am so glad to see what you said is written to be able now to pick out the errors and difference at large bettween us!
The main source of the issues is hefre at last and Now again I can point out the facts we accepted and don't accept!
the most I seen is a misunderstandings and not lies like G4 is saying!
I will take the time to copy and paste what you guy have said to what we believe and the truth about what also we both agree with the bible but, when put under the microscope, we are saying two different things and seeing what is not even there.
It also showed me how satan can twist and distort the truth, ands make misunderstanding be a lie instead of a lack of grace and love.
He has tricked many in making us think we have to do something which is really impossible and make us no threat to his carnal kingdom and religious deceptions.
I see also how religious demons are just laughing at us like we are monkey and stubborn dockeys!
satan has done a great job in creating eternal division and a house or group, can not stand or be able to use the grace and power God has given us under these condition and lack of knowledge!
The best example of this started in the garden with Adam and Eve, with a half truth, but if they knew and had knowledge of what this all will bring to humanity I don't think satan would have a chance against us fallen human beings.
If we both don't look to Jesus who already won for us we both will be crying how bad we got beat up by satan and his demon while on earth, and will be shown in heaven what we could have had when our ignorance didn't get in our way, but that is all on us or our faults, you and me will see the lack of knowledge about this:#
That is why proverb has so many truth we both reject and the main one is this:
Proverb:4:1: Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.
Proverb:4:2: For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
Proverb:4:3: For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother.
Proverb:4:4: He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
Proverb:4:5: Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.
Proverb:4:6: Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.
Proverb:4:7: Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Proverb:4:8: Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.
Proverb:4:9: She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.
Proverb:4:10: Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many.
Proverb:4:11: I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 11/28/2011 04:01:17
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Evan you keep insisting that many believe people have to do something, but I don't get this. If it's grace then that is what we need. Not your definitions and rules and doctrines. Grace is a certain thing that the Christian responds to in faith, and faith is a certain thing that is more that assent. But this idea that people can earn salvation. Well I'm not sure I know anyone that can do or believes they have to do that.
Would anyone that believes they can earn salvation please let us know?
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
Evan you keep insisting that many believe people have to do something, but I don't get this. If it's grace then that is what we need. Not your definitions and rules and doctrines. Grace is a certain thing that the Christian responds to in faith, and faith is a certain thing that is more that assent. But this idea that people can earn salvation. Well I'm not sure I know anyone that can do or believes they have to do that.
Would anyone that believes they can earn salvation please let us know?
You know very well that catholics have to earn salvation.
STOP TELLING LIES.
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Evangelist,
God does not ask the impossible. Perhaps you could start by addressing the passages that you cut short and I expanded on.
It is very important to have the right context, but frequently you stripped the context in order to make the verses conform to your tradition.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
Evan you keep insisting that many believe people have to do something, but I don't get this. If it's grace then that is what we need. Not your definitions and rules and doctrines. Grace is a certain thing that the Christian responds to in faith, and faith is a certain thing that is more that assent. But this idea that people can earn salvation. Well I'm not sure I know anyone that can do or believes they have to do that.
Would anyone that believes they can earn salvation please let us know?
one I know of is Catholics!
One love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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G4, please stop telling us what we believe.
The difference is simply illustrated by this:
God is not an employer who must pay us for what we do. The Pelagian heresy was essentially this, that we could obtain the graces of salvation through our own efforts. This was an ancient heresy which was condemned by the Catholic Church. This means that any catholic who believes this is the way to salvation is under anathema.
The Catholic Church also condemned semi-Pelagianism in 529 AD, which is the notion that you can make a decision for Christ by your own doing, denying that it was the grace of God that drew you to receive Him. This is basically the denial of original sin most prominently described in Romans 5.
This is the norm in modern evangelicalism and was first revived by Martin Luther but is anathema for Catholics. This is why I often challenge you on your thought that your human belief got you saved.
When we are in a relationship with God (born anew), we do not see God as an employer who owes us, but a loving Father who is raising us up as His own sons and daughters. As a good Father he rewards us for obedience and growth in His instruction, not because he owes us, but because of his promises. These are gifts (grace) that he gives to us freely.
So if you think we are earning salvation, then you don't know Catholic dogma, which is spelled out definitively for all to see.
All you are doing is repeating what others have told you and thus shadow boxing again.
If a Catholic thinks he needs to earn his own salvation while knowing the church teaches otherwise, that person is under anathema.
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Being made righteous is like having your house cleaned. Whether it REMAINS clean is a different issue. Christ makes us righteous, but we remain so only if we cooperate with His Grace.
"You have made us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You." St. Augustine of Hippo
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quote:
Originally posted by God4me
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
Evan you keep insisting that many believe people have to do something, but I don't get this. If it's grace then that is what we need. Not your definitions and rules and doctrines. Grace is a certain thing that the Christian responds to in faith, and faith is a certain thing that is more that assent. But this idea that people can earn salvation. Well I'm not sure I know anyone that can do or believes they have to do that.
Would anyone that believes they can earn salvation please let us know?
You know very well that catholics have to earn salvation.
STOP TELLING LIES.
Your wrong again g whiz. You should know better because you don't believe in sacraments,, and yet you baptize as an ORDINANCE. Ie a work and one that is dead cause there ain't no grace to be found. I will also add those other works of forced babbling and falling on the ground which you cannot be saved if you don't. Oh I known you won't come out and say it but you do think it. Ha ha. When is the last time you heard a catholic running around accusing people of being backslidden? Your steeped in works of the flesh bro and you cannot even see it..
Anyway on to the next..
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quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by mikejuli
Evan you keep insisting that many believe people have to do something, but I don't get this. If it's grace then that is what we need. Not your definitions and rules and doctrines. Grace is a certain thing that the Christian responds to in faith, and faith is a certain thing that is more that assent. But this idea that people can earn salvation. Well I'm not sure I know anyone that can do or believes they have to do that.
Would anyone that believes they can earn salvation please let us know?
one I know of is Catholics!
One love
No you don't.. I know one is C Moore.. he tends to accuse us Catholics of being works oriented because we don't follow his rules. Oh my. Did I call that or what?
Maybe you should do some homework, not that you ever take that advise, but go do a little research on a group called pelagians. And then see what a real "faith alone" belief is all about.. Funny that the original faith alone sect thought they could work their way to heaven. That's because historic faith wasn't just the assent that modern sects claim. Even the angels believe intellectually but that doesn't save them. What the pelagians missed and what the Catholics have always held was that we are saved by grace.
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In the OT, baptism was practiced to wash away impurity. Even the normal shedding of blood by a woman each month was enough to make her ritually impure (unable to participate in ritual activities), so too was was whatever issued from a man. There were numerous occasions when one would need to wash away ritual impurity either from their clothes and/or themselves.
This was practice for what was to come, as well as being good hygene.
Christ elevated baptism into something more. Just as His Sacrifice did away with the animal sacrifices of old, His baptism rendered all other baptisms obsolete. Now there is only one baptism for the remission of sins that washes away all unrighteousness and enters us into Christ.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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and is onle needed once. which alone makes it different from the old testament. to say that baptism is an old testament law or like it, would be like saying christs sacrifice was like the old testament law too. after all the ot is full of sacrifice. however the cross and baptism are part of the new covenant and are only done once.
Phl 4:8 ¶ Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.
Phl 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
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An important thing to remember is than in the Old Covenant, God gave them commandments. At no time was it ever wrong to obey God, or wrong to think that it was necessary to keep these commandments.
That is NOT why Jesus called them a wicked and perverse generation. See Matthew 12.
It is foolish and irresponsible to think that God would give commandments for His people and then condemn them for thinking it necessary to keep them.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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