What is meant by saying we are made righteous?
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First Member
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PM
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I think this might opem many truth and solve alot of issues and misunderstanding about the good gospel and also who we are in Christ Jesus and about , the do's and don'Ts some say we have to do to get on God side , or get saved, redeemed, justified and holy!To start I more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 11/27/2011 16:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
If a person trusts Jesus, then they will enter His Covenant and do as He asks.
That is the test of whether someone trusts or NOT.
The Ethiopian Eunuch believed, and was baptised. Philip did not offer to baptize, the Eunuch recognized the need to be baptized and asked for it.
The Bible says if we believe, we can be saved. But the Bible ALSO shows the difference between the Christian believer and the devils who believe and tremble. The Christian believers get baptized. The devils don't.
You gave examples of Christians believing and I showed you that they were IMMEDIATELY baptized. No waiting, no thinking about, no waiting for a public ceremony to show the world what they were professing. Just as Peter said in Acts 2:38 - they believed AND were baptized for the remission of sins.
And as for your last analogy, every person who jumps out of an airplane trusts that their parachute will open. If they did not trust their parachute with their very lives, they would not jump.
Your problem is that you want to jump without the parachute. You got the lessons, you are on the plane, and you are ready for your leap into the sky, but you don't seem to feel that it is important to put on the parachute even though your teacher said it was necessary.
So how did the failer get saved without a baptism?
He asked and Paul said just believe and you will be saved period!
Are you thinking Paul was a liar in saying this without say with water baptism to earn righteous by external performances??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
The Jailer was baptized. He and his entire household. Where were you?
Paul did not say just believe and do nothing else, period. Why must every single word be written out every time for you to get it.
The fact remains that the jailer was baptized. He understood it and he did not even need a pastor to teach him for six months. He got it right away and was baptized. What makes the Jailer so much cleverer than you?
The Ethiopian Eunuch travelled with Philip and was taught from the OLD TESTAMENT, and Philip used the OT to show the Gospel of Christ and the Eunuch got it. He asked for baptism as soon as he saw water.
All of them got baptized. The NT is filled with stories of baptism. So why are you so blind that you won't even see this? How could you have missed this?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Fourth Member
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PM
Member since 01/17/2007
Location: USA
Where does it say he was saved without a baptism?
Paul said believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your family.
This isn't when he was saved. What we would expect for faith alone confirmation is 'So he believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and thus was saved'. This is what you are assuming and yet what does the text say?
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all
that were in his house.
So Paul had to preach the word to the jailer. Now again for faith alone affirmation, you would expect to hear that he believed what they spake unto him, believed and were saved. No, what do we see instead:
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed
[their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
So part of the message that Paul and Silas spoke to them involved being baptized immediately. Concerning the short timeline (midnight to some later hour during the night), it wasn't a very long sermon. We still don't have any affirmation of belief alone.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
Now we see in summary that they believed in God (oddly not explicitly in Jesus Christ). Thus according to the command of Paul and Silas in v. 31, they were now saved.
So what happened in between the command and affirmation that they believed?
1.)Paul and Silas spoke the message,
2.)The jailer took them out and washed their wounds (a likely sign or fruit of repentance).
3.)The whole family was baptized.
now we can assume they were saved becaused they believed in the message spoken unto them and acted on it.
In this case and with the Ethiopian Eunuch, we see the rejoicing spoken of after they were baptized.
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Jailer was baptized. He and his entire household. Where were you?
Paul did not say just believe and do nothing else, period. Why must every single word be written out every time for you to get it.
The fact remains that the jailer was baptized. He understood it and he did not even need a pastor to teach him for six months. He got it right away and was baptized. What makes the Jailer so much cleverer than you?
The Ethiopian Eunuch travelled with Philip and was taught from the OLD TESTAMENT, and Philip used the OT to show the Gospel of Christ and the Eunuch got it. He asked for baptism as soon as he saw water.
All of them got baptized. The NT is filled with stories of baptism. So why are you so blind that you won't even see this? How could you have missed this?
My point is to see that Paul told the truth when he believed and at that point he was past tense saved!
If Paul said get baptized first and then believe second, it would turn into another tradition or doctrine on believing!
But the truth case is as soon as the jailer believe he was instantly saved period, and the only way to deny this is to disbelieve the word of God and call paul a liar!
I told you about the only sin that make a person go to hell is unbelief or no trust in Christ .
Must I have every single word be written out every time for you to get it FAITH???
Again the word trinity is not written in the bible but do you believe the trinity??
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by jdubya
Where does it say he was saved without a baptism?
Paul said believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your family.
This isn't when he was saved. What we would expect for faith alone confirmation is 'So he believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and thus was saved'. This is what you are assuming and yet what does the text say?
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all
that were in his house.
So Paul had to preach the word to the jailer. Now again for faith alone affirmation, you would expect to hear that he believed what they spake unto him, believed and were saved. No, what do we see instead:
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed
[their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
So part of the message that Paul and Silas spoke to them involved being baptized immediately. Concerning the short timeline (midnight to some later hour during the night), it wasn't a very long sermon. We still don't have any affirmation of belief alone.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.
Now we see in summary that they believed in God (oddly not explicitly in Jesus Christ). Thus according to the command of Paul and Silas in v. 31, they were now saved.
So what happened in between the command and affirmation that they believed?
1.)Paul and Silas spoke the message,
2.)The jailer took them out and washed their wounds (a likely sign or fruit of repentance).
3.)The whole family was baptized.
now we can assume they were saved becaused they believed in the message spoken unto them and acted on it.
In this case and with the Ethiopian Eunuch, we see the rejoicing spoken of after they were baptized.
Even the message of belief had to come first and that is what Paul said to the jailer to believe and he will be saved as soon as he believed!
The proof that he was instantly past tense saved, was shown by his fruit by secondly getting water baptized of a sysmbolic of what happen before he got wet and that was believed!
Do you know when the (ED) is at the end of a word it is a past tense or done deal??
The other best or gospel good news to know is as soon as the jailer believed he was even righteous before God instantly before any external tradition was ever done by an external carnal baptism!
please also don't get me wrong when i say carnal it means going by your five senses or external signs, as what you see, feel, and taste, because in a water baptism sometimes you get water in your mouth so you can taste the baptism water H2O!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 05/24/2012 06:01:03
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Evangelist, your point is not made in that passage. Just because you want to insert your own religious philosophy onto the text, does not change what is actually there.
The Jailer was not saved by Paul's words to believe. The Jailor's saving act of faith was getting baptized.
The simple act of saying we believe is not the saving act. The Parable of the Sower shows that. The Bible says that even Devils believe ... and tremble.
Devils believe but are not saved because they refuse to obey. That is the difference.
They know that Jesus died for our sins. They know that better than you do.
Devils refused to obey Christ. That is why they are not saved even though they believe.
I gave you a whole bunch of passages on another thread that shows that if we love God we will keep His commandments. Not just our born again spirits, either, WE, body and mind and heart and spirit, will keep His commandments.
There is no point in saying we believe if we refuse to do what He says. That is not useful.
I can say that I believe in the fireman who came to rescue me from the flames, but if I refuse to do what he says, I will die in the fire. What good is belief, if I refuse to live out that belief?
Belief without obedience is lipservice.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 05/24/2012 14:37:53
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist, your point is not made in that passage. Just because you want to insert your own religious philosophy onto the text, does not change what is actually there.
The Jailer was not saved by Paul's words to believe. The Jailor's saving act of faith was getting baptized.
The simple act of saying we believe is not the saving act. The Parable of the Sower shows that. The Bible says that even Devils believe ... and tremble.
Devils believe but are not saved because they refuse to obey. That is the difference.
They know that Jesus died for our sins. They know that better than you do.
Devils refused to obey Christ. That is why they are not saved even though they believe.
I gave you a whole bunch of passages on another thread that shows that if we love God we will keep His commandments. Not just our born again spirits, either, WE, body and mind and heart and spirit, will keep His commandments.
There is no point in saying we believe if we refuse to do what He says. That is not useful.
I can say that I believe in the fireman who came to rescue me from the flames, but if I refuse to do what he says, I will die in the fire. What good is belief, if I refuse to live out that belief?
Belief without obedience is lipservice.
The only way to make valid in what you are trying to post and believe would have to call Paul and liar and a deciever !
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
No. What I wrote affirms what Paul wrote. He did not say anything that was different.
Past tense is not an absolute. You want to take a simple statement and make it into a dogma even when your extreme interpretation forces a contradiction with the rest of what Paul wrote.
When contradictions occur, you must reconcile them, even when this means reexamining your original assertion.
Jesus died - that is done. We were made righteous when we were baptized. That was done - we need not be baptized ever again. But that does not mean that we are cleansed from all future sin or that we have a licence to sin - as Paul would say - God forbid.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Evangelist, your point is not made in that passage. Just because you want to insert your own religious philosophy onto the text, does not change what is actually there.
The Jailer was not saved by Paul's words to believe. The Jailor's saving act of faith was getting baptized.
The simple act of saying we believe is not the saving act. The Parable of the Sower shows that. The Bible says that even Devils believe ... and tremble.
Devils believe but are not saved because they refuse to obey. That is the difference.
They know that Jesus died for our sins. They know that better than you do.
Devils refused to obey Christ. That is why they are not saved even though they believe.
I gave you a whole bunch of passages on another thread that shows that if we love God we will keep His commandments. Not just our born again spirits, either, WE, body and mind and heart and spirit, will keep His commandments.
There is no point in saying we believe if we refuse to do what He says. That is not useful.
I can say that I believe in the fireman who came to rescue me from the flames, but if I refuse to do what he says, I will die in the fire. What good is belief, if I refuse to live out that belief?
Belief without obedience is lipservice.
Demons and satan does not use the faith of Jesus and that is why their belief is invalid in the first place!
You must recieve that faith gift given to us from God, and that is based not on our actions or any performance of us , but alone given and done by Christ Jesus!
Ro:12:3: For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
God did not give His grace and faith to demons and satan don't you know that??
the saving activation is when a person accepts that faith gift which saved them, but religion is teaching this backward in saying we using our own faith which never came from us in the first place so it is really dead faith.
Once you accept this gift faith which everyone has the exact same measure of saved faith GIVEN unto them freely without any works, will use what they have recieved afterwards, and then they want and desire to do the will of God out of joy and thanksgiving, and works of pleasing our Father who saved us by His grace to us with His faith.
The second step for us is how much do we use that precious gift of faith, which most of the body of Christ is not doing, and that is why sinners and unbelievers don't want what they don't see us use FAITH!
It is sad but true!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 05/25/2012 04:25:39
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PM
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Location: Canada
The demons had everything they needed to make the choice long ago. They refused to obey Christ because of what He would do and did.
Obedience is still the key. It is the message from the beginning to the end of the Bible.
We have been given grace and faith. We did nothing to earn them. We did not and do not deserve what was given to us, but we are to use them for our salvation.
We were made righteous through no merit of our own. Nothing we did earned this.
Christ paid a debt that we can never hope to repay and He has not asked us to repay it. That is such wonderful news.
But your version of the Gospel spits on everything that was done for you and to you.
Jesus did far more than just declare us to be righteous. He washed us clean in His own Blood. All of our past sins, including original sin, were washed away as if they had never been. And Jesus gave us everything we need to continue in this Righteousness, and the means to become clean again should we stumble. Jesus knows us very well and made provision for that.
But you say no. You say that we don't have to be righteous, we just have to imagine that because Jesus is Righteous that we are righteous even after we have returned to the mire.
That is trampling underfoot all that Christ gave for us. That is like spitting on the cross.
We are children of God. All children can repent and have their transgressions forgiven. What good father would deny his own children? What child would not want his or her Father's forgiveness after having wronged him? But you act like the slave who feels he does not need the master's forgiveness.
The Bible speaks to that, but you do not listen.
We serve whom we obey - who do you obey?
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The demons had everything they needed to make the choice long ago. They refused to obey Christ because of what He would do and did.
Obedience is still the key. It is the message from the beginning to the end of the Bible.
We have been given grace and faith. We did nothing to earn them. We did not and do not deserve what was given to us, but we are to use them for our salvation.
We were made righteous through no merit of our own. Nothing we did earned this.
Christ paid a debt that we can never hope to repay and He has not asked us to repay it. That is such wonderful news.
But your version of the Gospel spits on everything that was done for you and to you.
Jesus did far more than just declare us to be righteous. He washed us clean in His own Blood. All of our past sins, including original sin, were washed away as if they had never been. And Jesus gave us everything we need to continue in this Righteousness, and the means to become clean again should we stumble. Jesus knows us very well and made provision for that.
But you say no. You say that we don't have to be righteous, we just have to imagine that because Jesus is Righteous that we are righteous even after we have returned to the mire.
That is trampling underfoot all that Christ gave for us. That is like spitting on the cross.
We are children of God. All children can repent and have their transgressions forgiven. What good father would deny his own children? What child would not want his or her Father's forgiveness after having wronged him? But you act like the slave who feels he does not need the master's forgiveness.
The Bible speaks to that, but you do not listen.
We serve whom we obey - who do you obey?
What you explained is the same reason we are justified and sanctified through the blood and death of Christ!
Justified is like you said also as if we never sinned so there is no stains of sins niether for a purgatory or another pit stop, so before God we remain righteous because alone of what Jesus paid in full for us for all times not just our past and present sins , but the too good gospel is about our future sins is already forgaved and that is why we are saved!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
The Bible says past sins are forgiven when we are born again. Very explicitly.
And the Bible says that future sins may be forgiven as often as we truly repent of them. Also very explicitly.
Please keep to the actual Gospel and not your new fangled version.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Bible says past sins are forgiven when we are born again. Very explicitly.
And the Bible says that future sins may be forgiven as often as we truly repent of them. Also very explicitly.
Please keep to the actual Gospel and not your new fangled version.
Sorry , I am just a son of gOD AND A SAINT not a catholic who must repent yearly or dairly, or day after day to be forgiven over and over again my Jesus blood!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Bible says past sins are forgiven when we are born again. Very explicitly.
And the Bible says that future sins may be forgiven as often as we truly repent of them. Also very explicitly.
Please keep to the actual Gospel and not your new fangled version.
Sorry , I am just a son of gOD AND A SAINT not a catholic who must repent yearly or dairly, or day after day to be forgiven over and over again my Jesus blood!
Ezernal righteousness is better than a catholic momentary righteousness!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
quote:
Originally posted by evangelist
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
The Bible says past sins are forgiven when we are born again. Very explicitly.
And the Bible says that future sins may be forgiven as often as we truly repent of them. Also very explicitly.
Please keep to the actual Gospel and not your new fangled version.
Sorry , I am just a son of gOD AND A SAINT not a catholic who must repent yearly or dairly, or day after day to be forgiven over and over again my Jesus blood!
one love
???
Do you not realize that every sin that is repented of, no matter when, is covered by Christ's once for all sacrifice?
I am a child of God and I am called to be a saint, not only in spirit, but also in Truth.
And the Bible says that past sins are forgiven, and that future sins can be forgiven as provided for in the scriptures.
This is true whether you are Catholic or not. The Bible says what it does no matter what spirit tells you otherwise.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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