What is meant by saying we are made righteous?
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First Member
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PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
I think this might opem many truth and solve alot of issues and misunderstanding about the good gospel and also who we are in Christ Jesus and about , the do's and don'Ts some say we have to do to get on God side , or get saved, redeemed, justified and holy!To start I more... I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 11/27/2011 16:05:31
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
I told you before, we have two choices. Jesus Christ OR Sin.
We serve whom we OBEY. If we OBEY Christ, then we belong to Him and are saved. If, after having been washed clean and redeemed from the slavery of sin, we choose to return to sin, then that is what we belong to. That is our Master and that will send us to Hell.
You like to cherry pick your verses, but the Bible says that the way to Heaven is NARROW. The Wide and Easy, too good to be true path leads to Hell.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
That too. But not only that.
Then you must change that verse the way you want it to say and add to it!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
No I don't. It reads perfectly the way it is. You just read it in an odd way to make it fit your religious philosophy.
To get the proper meaning, you have to look at the context and the rest of the scriptures to ensure that your interpretation does not cause a contradiction. Your interpretation forces a problem that should not be there.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
No I don't. It reads perfectly the way it is. You just read it in an odd way to make it fit your religious philosophy.
To get the proper meaning, you have to look at the context and the rest of the scriptures to ensure that your interpretation does not cause a contradiction. Your interpretation forces a problem that should not be there.
It is only a issue for you because it is too good to be true!
i alway teach and show the good gospel, and what is easy and set people free by grace not to what to sin, even though we do still sin because of our fallen minds and body zombie nature we have!
Do you know why in a zombie film if you even watch one why they must shoot a zombie in the head to kill them??
That is why Paul said in Roman 12 our head is to be transformed because it still has many years on a zombie performances of sin brain washed into it!
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
Hello Faith
Have you ever heard of a righteous Zombie??
I would like to write a new book on that or a book about a mental retarted righteous Christian! 
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Edited by evangelist on 06/23/2012 04:30:10
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PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Our mind does need to be renewed, but not to be cleansed of religious observances or avoidance of sin.
Just like the ancient heretics, you seem to think that Jesus is a different god who has risen up to get rid of the bad old god, and remove all that He laid out.
A book does need to be written, and may well have, concerning whether Jesus came to start a new religion. Because many today don't seem to realize that Jesus did not come to tear everything down and start fresh. He came fo fulfill all that came before, and bring it to perfection.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
Edited by Faith_at_Large on 06/23/2012 09:12:10
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Our mind does need to be renewed, but not to be cleansed of religious observances or avoidance of sin.
Just like the ancient heretics, you seem to think that Jesus is a different god who has risen up to get rid of the bad old god, and remove all that He laid out.
A book does need to be written, and may well have, concerning whether Jesus came to start a new religion. Because many today don't seem to realize that Jesus did not come to tear everything down and start fresh. He came fo fulfill all that came before, and bring it to perfection.
Why does the bible say the old was the shadow of the new?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Because it was. The old is revealed in the new and the new is concealed in the old.
What happened befoe was leading up to what we have now. What happened in the New Testament was known from the beginning, and prepared for step by step throughout the Old Testament.
In the OT, they were being prepared, but were not yet ready. All they saw was the shadow. We now have what cast the shadow. But what you seem to grasp does not match the shadow that was cast.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Because it was. The old is revealed in the new and the new is concealed in the old.
What happened befoe was leading up to what we have now. What happened in the New Testament was known from the beginning, and prepared for step by step throughout the Old Testament.
In the OT, they were being prepared, but were not yet ready. All they saw was the shadow. We now have what cast the shadow. But what you seem to grasp does not match the shadow that was cast.
What part is the real part?
I know my shadow of myself is not the real me, can you explain more clearly?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
Your shadow is not you, but is cast by the light that shines upon you. In that way your shadow is a hint at what you are, it reveals something of your shape and even your size though this varies with the time of day, but not the colour of your features.
The Old Testament shows the pattern of what will be. The shape and size, but not all the details.
The Temple of God was prepared twice, first as a temporary structure made with cloth and posts, but very well defined in its structure and purpose. This Temple is built a second time, much larger and with solid and more enduring buiding materials, with the same basic structure and purpose. This "permanent" was destroyed twice, but rebuilt only once.
When Jesus came, the Temple of God was built again, but not with stone or cedar or cloth, but with human beings. Peter was set as the foundation by the Master Builder, Jesus Christ. Others were set as pillars and the Master Builder set Himself as the supporting cornerstone. And the walls were built with all of us. But a change did also occur. When Christ died, the temple veil was rent - this broke down the wall between us and God. And the newest Temple that is all born again believers is fully united with God without a barrier.
At the time of Christ, while still under the Old Covenant, the Temple was a place of worship with sacrifice, and away from the Temple, they had Synagogues where they had prayer services without sacrifice. A Temple, by its very nature, is a place of worship with an altar of sacrifice where sacrifices are offered. This is why the Author of Hebrews says, even into the New Covenant, we have an altar that they may not partake of (Hebrews 13:10).
Today, there are some Christian churches that still have altars, but many more that have removed their altars. A Temple must have an altar or it ceases to be a temple. Many Christians today no longer worship in the Temple, but in Synagogues, just as the OT people did when they were too far to attend the Temple itself, but at least they went the Temple at least on special occasions.
There are two other major elements to the shadow versus reality that need to be discussed - the hiearchy and the laws. I will get into these later after I have gone to worship today.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
Your shadow is not you, but is cast by the light that shines upon you. In that way your shadow is a hint at what you are, it reveals something of your shape and even your size though this varies with the time of day, but not the colour of your features.
The Old Testament shows the pattern of what will be. The shape and size, but not all the details.
The Temple of God was prepared twice, first as a temporary structure made with cloth and posts, but very well defined in its structure and purpose. This Temple is built a second time, much larger and with solid and more enduring buiding materials, with the same basic structure and purpose. This "permanent" was destroyed twice, but rebuilt only once.
When Jesus came, the Temple of God was built again, but not with stone or cedar or cloth, but with human beings. Peter was set as the foundation by the Master Builder, Jesus Christ. Others were set as pillars and the Master Builder set Himself as the supporting cornerstone. And the walls were built with all of us. But a change did also occur. When Christ died, the temple veil was rent - this broke down the wall between us and God. And the newest Temple that is all born again believers is fully united with God without a barrier.
At the time of Christ, while still under the Old Covenant, the Temple was a place of worship with sacrifice, and away from the Temple, they had Synagogues where they had prayer services without sacrifice. A Temple, by its very nature, is a place of worship with an altar of sacrifice where sacrifices are offered. This is why the Author of Hebrews says, even into the New Covenant, we have an altar that they may not partake of (Hebrews 13:10).
Today, there are some Christian churches that still have altars, but many more that have removed their altars. A Temple must have an altar or it ceases to be a temple. Many Christians today no longer worship in the Temple, but in Synagogues, just as the OT people did when they were too far to attend the Temple itself, but at least they went the Temple at least on special occasions.
There are two other major elements to the shadow versus reality that need to be discussed - the hiearchy and the laws. I will get into these later after I have gone to worship today.
So do think the real temple in heaven is the same temple made on earth?
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
It is a reflection. The pattern comes from Heaven. The Kingdom of God, the Temple, all of it - what we see on earth, made on earth, guided by God on Earth, is patterned after what already exists in Heaven.
It is important to understand that the biggest part of sacrifice in Worship is Communion with God. From the beginning, sacrifices were a way of uniting groups together, whether a family, a tribe, or a nation, with God and each other.
Sacrifices are more than just sin offerings. There were also Thank Offerings and other kinds as well. Even in the OT, there were sacrifices that were shared with the whole community so that all could eat with God as HIS Family. During these communion gatherings, a portion of the sacrifice would be burned completely as God's portion.
Even the Passover itself had elements of this - the sacrifice was not complete until all the meat of the animal was consumed by all who would participate in the covenant, and any remaining peices (fat, cartilege, bones, etc.) were burned in the fire till all was consumed.
God has always wanted to be with His people and have His people with Him. This is was is present in the Old Testament, and continues through into the New Covenant.
Communion unites the Family of God just as Sunday Dinner unites a family in the home.
There can be no discussion of the Temple without a discussing the purpose of the Temple which is sacrifice.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
I may have to break this up. I still need to discuss the Hierarchy and the Laws. But it has been a busy day.
I will point out that very little has changed with respect to the Hierarchy. Not even the Management. The only real change in the replacement of the High Priest - now we have the best one we could ever hope for, and the Aaronic and Levitical priesthood has been opened up so that one no longer needs to be in the family business any longer. The Royal Priesthood of believers that was established in the OT, but now includes Gentiles.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
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Contact:
PM
Member since 11/17/2007
Location: Canada
With respect to the Law, it is important to understand that God does not change and God is not stupid.
If God really thought giving us laws to show us that we could not obey them was necessary, then what was the point? Why would anyone need to know that they had trouble obeying something that God didn't think we needed to obey in the first place?
Further, given that many people have always been able to keep God's Laws, the point was only made to those of weak faith.
When Adam and Eve were first made, there was only ONE Law. One law, and it wasn't that they had to believe in Jesus Christ. All they had to do was not do the one thing God said not to do. They did it.
Now if God wanted to teach Adam and Eve that they needed Him and couldn't keep His laws, then why punish them and all their progeny on earth from that time to now? Wasn't His point made then?
After Adam and Eve, God did not hand down any written laws until Moses. First with the Ten Commandments on stone, and when they blasphemed so terribly, additional laws were put in place that covered nearly every loophole. But between Adam and Moses, God had already flooded the earth and destroyed two cities. Those earlier people broke God's Law too - Natural Law. It should not have been necessary for God to write any Laws down. We should have known better. God sent His prophets to teach His people, but becaue of the hardness of their hearts, more was necessary = Laws needed to be written down. The Letter of the Law was put forth to train His children to become all that He wanted.
God punished those who did not have the Law. Before The Law (Mosaic Law) was written. The Law as you know it is not what condemned anyone, it merely defined the crimes and their punishments.
We are now at a stage, as promised in the OT, where God's Laws are written upon our hearts. We don't need the letter of the Law any more, the Spirit of the Law is that prevails. But the Spirit does not mean that the letter is done - Jesus said that not a jot or a tittle would be done away with. We are not free to break the letter of the law. But if we are obeying the Spirit of the Law, the letter of the law is satisfied.
Some take the spirit to mean imaginary or different or easier. In a way it is easier, but it is not imaginary or different. It is easier because there are no loopholes. The Law of Love prevails - if we love God, we won't do anything that would dissappoint Him, and if we love our neighbour, we don't do anything that would cause him or her any distress - no stealing, no adultery, no bearing false witness, etc.
Simple. God spent several thousand years teaching us how to obey Him and to Trust Him. He didn't do this so that we could go back to living like we did several thousand years ago before the Law was written down.
Pax et Bonum,
Faith_at_Large
"There are some in the Church, who not only do not do what is good, but even persecute it, and hate in others what they neglect to do themselves. The sin of these men is not that of infirmity or ignorance, but deliberate willful sin." — Pope St. Gregory the Great (AD 540-604)
-
-
Contact:
PM
Member since 07/10/2003
Location: Germany
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_at_Large
With respect to the Law, it is important to understand that God does not change and God is not stupid.
If God really thought giving us laws to show us that we could not obey them was necessary, then what was the point? Why would anyone need to know that they had trouble obeying something that God didn't think we needed to obey in the first place?
Further, given that many people have always been able to keep God's Laws, the point was only made to those of weak faith.
When Adam and Eve were first made, there was only ONE Law. One law, and it wasn't that they had to believe in Jesus Christ. All they had to do was not do the one thing God said not to do. They did it.
Now if God wanted to teach Adam and Eve that they needed Him and couldn't keep His laws, then why punish them and all their progeny on earth from that time to now? Wasn't His point made then?
After Adam and Eve, God did not hand down any written laws until Moses. First with the Ten Commandments on stone, and when they blasphemed so terribly, additional laws were put in place that covered nearly every loophole. But between Adam and Moses, God had already flooded the earth and destroyed two cities. Those earlier people broke God's Law too - Natural Law. It should not have been necessary for God to write any Laws down. We should have known better. God sent His prophets to teach His people, but becaue of the hardness of their hearts, more was necessary = Laws needed to be written down. The Letter of the Law was put forth to train His children to become all that He wanted.
God punished those who did not have the Law. Before The Law (Mosaic Law) was written. The Law as you know it is not what condemned anyone, it merely defined the crimes and their punishments.
We are now at a stage, as promised in the OT, where God's Laws are written upon our hearts. We don't need the letter of the Law any more, the Spirit of the Law is that prevails. But the Spirit does not mean that the letter is done - Jesus said that not a jot or a tittle would be done away with. We are not free to break the letter of the law. But if we are obeying the Spirit of the Law, the letter of the law is satisfied.
Some take the spirit to mean imaginary or different or easier. In a way it is easier, but it is not imaginary or different. It is easier because there are no loopholes. The Law of Love prevails - if we love God, we won't do anything that would dissappoint Him, and if we love our neighbour, we don't do anything that would cause him or her any distress - no stealing, no adultery, no bearing false witness, etc.
Simple. God spent several thousand years teaching us how to obey Him and to Trust Him. He didn't do this so that we could go back to living like we did several thousand years ago before the Law was written down.
Ga:5:13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Ga:5:14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
one love
I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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